The guys with the signs. =(

[Nisemono]

Hey guys,

I am relatively new in town. I have posted a few times, and have been pretty active up in the Springfield area for the last few years. These guys on Dickson Street on Friday nights are getting old. Really old. You know the ones. "Women wearing skirts are sinning, homosexuals are sinning, we are all going to a great big party in hell". Those guys.

The problem is not that I disagree with their message. It is that, through our silence, the entire community is led to believe that these guys are the only ones passionate enough about their beliefs to stand up for them. And, sadly, passion is equated with validity in many individuals minds.

I am all for free speech. I am a huge advocate of it, actually. And I respect that these guys have a right to say and think and do whatever they want. However, I don't respect their ability to say it without response. We had guys like this in Springfield for a long time. And our most successful response has been to simply reply with signs. There are two main branches of the responsive signs.

One is more peaceful... we bring out signs that read "Free Hugs", "Free High-Fives", and "We **Heart** Everyone... Unconditionally"...

The other is a bit more on-task, but more subversive. Our signs look very similar... same sort of crappy stenciling... but they read things like "The only rational basis for morality is a concern for the suffering and happiness of all conscious beings" and "Homosexuals are normal." At first people walk by and assume that we are part of the crazies... but as they read the signs you start getting smiles, waves, and the occasional "Thank You".

I might just start for a while doing it on the first Friday of the month. Is anyone interested in participating?

[Dardedar]

DAR
Nisemono, we have gone out and interacted with these guys many many times. One time, I am guessing around 2002 or so, we actually did make up a bunch of signs and got a group together and made fun of them. My girlfriend, as a birthday present to me, even dressed-up like a stripper and we took a bunch of semi provocative pictures with these guys. Our signs were provocative and mocking but we were acceptably respectable. The cops came up several times and asked the religious guys if we were bothering them or interfering with their ability/right to do their thing. Of course, we were not and there was no problem. We were celebrating the American right to be a fool and stand on the street and hold any silly sign you want. We were obviously having fun with them, at their expense and the passers by loved it, and appreciated it, and said so.

At other times, on more than a dozen occasions we have gotten into intense conversations with them. We generally know more about the Bible than these guys (certainly the naughty bits that they ignore and don't know about) so it is usually quick work to rip them to shreds if they are silly enough to try and defend the Bible from modern scholarly criticism (of which they are nearly completely ignorant) or the nonsense on their placards (which often have misspelled words and flatly misstate what the verse they are quoting actually says). One preacher was there with a bunch of his flock. We got into the Bible and I think I was able to give him a right good spanking on the issues, right in front of his sheep. You have to be quick, sharp and know when you can get away with interrupting to pull this off (kind of like Bill O'Reilly). They are out of their element because they are not used to having their beliefs actively and rather aggressively questioned. They are not used to backing their stuff up, just making wild assertions in a church environment. Well, if they don't want to get roasted maybe they should have stayed home in the church and not tried to parade their aggressive nonsense in a public forum. Of course, as a proud supporter of the ACLU, I realize they absolutely have the right to protest or gather as they wish without harassment or interference from anyone. I do not engage in that, at all. If they aren't interested in having a discussion, which sometimes happens, I just read their signs and move along. If they want to talk, then fine, and it can be quite polite. If they are aggressive about their stupidity, then they are going to get roasted right there in front of the public.

Most of these are sincere mild mannered, inbred, hardcore, fundies. Rather innocent, usually very simple. For these you speak slow and politely. Personally, I think some of them like to go out and do this so they can ogle the pretty girls on Saturday night so they can go home and touch themselves later. No, really. Of course they are mostly sexually repressed. It goes with the job. Some of them come from independent fundie churches in Missouri, some come from Van Buren. Sometimes I have had good conversations with them and I think they may have even learned something. They didn't realize that some atheists know so much about the Bible. That's not what they have been told. Plus, I have the advantage of telling them that I used to belief as they did and even used to stand on street corners and go door to door when my parents tried to raised me as a religious nut. We held up Watchtower and Awake! magazines. Same poop, different pile.

Then there is another group which is a branch of Ray Comfort's group. They actually stand on chairs and yell at people as they go by. Lots of anti-evolution and gay hatred stuff. If I am around and have nothing better to do, and my wife will let me indulge myself (she doesn't know or care about anything in the Bible) I have no trouble with engaging several of them directly and giving them a good proper roasting on the issues, while embarrassing them for yelling at people. It's like an intellectual Karate movie, well... except it's not fake. These guys are studied dumb-asses that don't know how to think and don't understand what they are talking about. But you can feel like you are picking on little kids afterward. Maybe time would have been better spent at home watching the tube or roasting Galt on the forum?

If anyone would like to go have some fun with the fundies some night and the weather is nice, I am certainly game. I don't know what happened to our old signs but I know I have some of the artwork still buried in my computer somewhere. Perhaps I can dig up the pictures from that night and post them here somewhere. It would be nice to put on a little counter presentation for the public. People like it. We could hand out literature and stuff. Trouble is, you have to do it right and walk the line right or you can look like a nut too. Best to stay fun and light.

D.

[Doug]

DAR
Nisemono, we have gone out and interacted with these guys many many times. One time, I am guessing around 2002 or so, we actually did make up a bunch of signs and got a group together and made fun of them.

DOUG
As I recall, that was on Darrel's birthday. I spent a little extra time with my sign standing next to one of the fundies (after others had gone into the bar across the street). My sign said: "See the harm religion does" and it had an arrow pointing off to the side. I would stand so the arrow pointed at the fundie beside me. When no one else was listening, the fundie asked me, "Don't you have anything better to do than stand around holding a sign?" I roasted the crap out of him for that. He was standing there with a sign longer than I was.

On two other occasions, I approached the same guy on Dickson Street and used Luke 6:30 to get his signs: "If any man asketh of thee, give." So I asked him for his signs. In all, I got about six or eight signs. That really pissed him off.

[RobertMadewell]

I'm game for a little fun. Let me know the date and time. Maybe, I'll be able to participate. Afterwards maybe a little Thai Diner?

[Betsy]

I like the idea of just holding signs with clear, rational statements that are the antithesis to their crazy irrational ones MUCH better than ever trying to engage those people in a conversation of any kind. And I like the idea of people smiling and saying thanks; I'm sure such signs would actually go a long way to just make people happier as they stroll along Dickson street. I think it's a great idea.

[Nisemono]

I am glad to see the response.

As far as I am concerned, there is very little reason to debate with the guys, unless you have a real crowd forming that can see you kick them around a bit. If I do debate, it is purely from a "your book doesn't have any authority" standpoint, which doesn't go over as well with the public. They don't agree with the guys with the signs, but they still don't want me criticizing a 200 year old text they believe has real authority. =P

Basically, I leave the bible out of it, and base my signs on the rationality of religion entirely. If you argue about the bible, you are at least giving them that the bible might have the authority, and that Jesus did exist, and I am not sure on either of those points. (Actually, I am becoming more and more sure, but that is for another conversation... )

I certainly prefer the good ol' parody signs with rational statements and messages of the non-judgmental variety. ("I have no rational basis to criticize your attire.")Quotes from the big boys like Dawkins and Harris. Occasionally pull out the Flying Spaghetti Monster references, if you are dealing with the the super-talky sort of guys. (Although that takes planning, and a pirate flag.)

Lets do it this way, if everyone is cool...

October 3rd I will be down on Dickson. That is a Friday night, which seems to be their most active evening. It will also give me a few weeks to prepare the signs. I will have my favorite Sam Harris quote... "The only rational basis for morality is a concern for the suffering and happiness of all conscious beings." I will probably also have a few other signs. Feel free to meet me there. Bring your own signs, or just trust me to have mine.

If anyone wants to go out another night, just post the night here.

-Amber

-Amber

[Dardedar]

They don't agree with the guys with the signs, but they still don't want me criticizing a 200 year old text they believe has real authority. =P

DAR
Well that's were the educating comes in. You just teach them modern scholarship about the Bible. And teach them things about the Bible they don't know. If they want to defend the barbaric morals of 2,000 years ago (see our tract Why Your Morals Are Better than the Bible's,) then at least they should know what the "Good Book" says.

If you argue about the bible, you are at least giving them that the bible might have the authority, and that Jesus did exist, and I am not sure on either of those points.

DAR
I know the attempts to show Jesus didn't exist but the arguments apparently aren't strong enough to persuade any notable Bible scholars. So it's pretty obscure, radical and can never be shown beyond some interesting circumstantial possibilities. I always let them start from his existence because mere existence isn't much of a claim and without that there is no starting point. Jesus or no Jesus really doesn't matter. No one really knows anything about the guy. If they didn't have him to project their moral intuitions upon they would just use someone else handy.

I will have my favorite Sam Harris quote... "The only rational basis for morality is a concern for the suffering and happiness of all conscious beings." I will probably also have a few other signs.

DAR
Sounds good. Everyone will make or use whatever sign they want or feel comfortable with I am sure. I have just one little suggestion/recommendation (so far). As an actor on a stage exaggerates their statements and actions in or to "act" and put on a show it may be useful to be a little provocative here. The street is a stage. For instance, that wonderful Sam Harris quote (I have his book by my bed) sounds like a nice title for a long essay which might go on to establish (or not) it's claim. Or it could be a good conversation starter. As for myself, I am going to want a sign that stirs it up or makes them really laugh. Here are at least two I remember from last time:

"Jesus died for your sins... So Party Hard and make it worth his time!"

"Why be born again when you can just grow up?"

"Now you know why they call it the Buy-Bull" (cute picture of Bull provided)

Okay, I found the old pictures. I'll try to post them in this thread today. They were from August 4, 2000.

Dang, we were pretty radical.

[Dardedar]

[Nisemono]

Hey guys,

It turns out that I need to be in Springfield this weekend. I am heading up a voter registration drive that my friend in the Obama campaign needs a hand with.

Registering people in a swing state to keep the fundies out of the white house has to take precedent. So no signs this weekend. =(

-Amber