I'm shocked! (passed along from Larry W.)
U.S. is not greatest country ever
By MICHAEL KINSLEY | 11/2/10
When foreign car companies started opening factories in the United States, back in the 1980s, it seemed like an act of obeisance. The plants didn’t make economic sense — Americans had to be paid so much more — but this was a tactful bit of tribute to Empire Central. America wants auto plants? America gets auto plants.
Last week, BMW announced it was opening a plant in South Carolina. No special explanation was required. People were lined up for jobs paying $15 an hour. Equivalent jobs in Germany pay $30 an hour. We’re now a bargain.
The theory that Americans are better than everybody else is endorsed by an overwhelming majority of U.S. voters and approximately 100 percent of all U.S. politicians, although there is less and less evidence to support it. A recent Yahoo poll (and I resist the obvious joke here) found that 75 percent of Americans believe that the United States is “the greatest country in the world.” Does any other electorate demand such constant reassurance about how wonderful it is — and how wise? Having spent a month to a couple of years and many millions of dollars trying to snooker voters, politicians awaiting poll results Tuesday will declare that they put their faith in “the fundamental wisdom of the American people.”
Not me. Democracy requires me to respect the results of the elections. It doesn’t require me to agree with them or to admire the process by which voters made up their minds. In my view, anyone who voted for Barack Obama for president in 2008 and now is supporting some tea party madwoman for senator has a bit of explaining to do. But the general view is that the voters, who may be fools individually, are infallibly wise as a collective — that their “anger,” their urgent desire, yet again, for “change,” is self-validating.
Everybody will be talking in the next few days about the “message” of the elections. They mean, of course, the message from the voters. This is one of the treasured conventions of political journalism. Yesterday, the story was all about artifice and manipulation, the possible effect of the latest attack ad or absurd lie. Today, all that melts away. The election results are deemed to reflect grand historical trends. But my colleague Joe Scarborough got it right in these pages last week when he argued that the 2010 elections, for all their passion and vitriol, are basically irrelevant. Some people are voting Tuesday for calorie-free chocolate cake, and some are voting for fat-free ice cream. Neither option is actually available. Neither party’s candidates seriously addressed the national debt, except with proposals to make it even worse. Scarborough might have added that neither party’s candidates had much to say about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (except that they “support our troops,” a flabby formulation
that leaves Americans killing and dying in faraway wars that politicians won’t defend explicitly). Politicians are silent on both these issues for the same reason: There is no solution that American voters will tolerate. Why can’t we have calorie-free chocolate cake? We’re Americans!
Read the rest here
U.S. is not greatest country ever
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Dardedar
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U.S. is not greatest country ever
"I'm not a skeptic because I want to believe, I'm a skeptic because I want to know." --Michael Shermer
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Dardedar
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- Posts: 8193
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Re: U.S. is not greatest country ever
After reading some of the comments at the above article (rightwingers are pissed of course) I added this one:
"Those going on and on about freedom probably don't realize that it is something that can be (and is) objectively measured. The US does not do well in several categories.
See here for several examples:
http://fayfreethinkers.com/mythbuster/a ... edom.shtml
If we're so free, why can't we go to Cuba? Canadians can.
In freedom of the press, the US ranks 17th.
A dozen countries offer more freedom to their gay communities.
In the democracy/political category we come in 18th: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
In economic freedom we come in 5th:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_E ... l_rankings
Michael Kinsey is exactly right, as usual. Those who think otherwise ought to get a passport... and use it."
"Those going on and on about freedom probably don't realize that it is something that can be (and is) objectively measured. The US does not do well in several categories.
See here for several examples:
http://fayfreethinkers.com/mythbuster/a ... edom.shtml
If we're so free, why can't we go to Cuba? Canadians can.
In freedom of the press, the US ranks 17th.
A dozen countries offer more freedom to their gay communities.
In the democracy/political category we come in 18th: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
In economic freedom we come in 5th:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_E ... l_rankings
Michael Kinsey is exactly right, as usual. Those who think otherwise ought to get a passport... and use it."
"I'm not a skeptic because I want to believe, I'm a skeptic because I want to know." --Michael Shermer
-
Dardedar
- Site Admin
- Posts: 8193
- Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:18 pm
- Designate the number of cents in half a dollar: 0
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Re: U.S. is not greatest country ever
Some cherries from the Politico comment thread:
***
"The posters to this article provide further proof, as if its needed, that many Conservatives are some of most insecure, myopic people on the planet. The genius of talk radio and Fox News is the understanding that so many Conservatives need their egos stroked on a daily basis or they simply wouldn't be able to function. They wouldn't be able to get out of bed in the morning, deal with their kids, or hold a job unless they believed with religious zeal that they were special and were living in the most special of special places. In this way they seem to have the equivalent emotional health of my 7 year-old daughter. And about the same level of self-awareness. So Bravo to you, Kinsley. Better watch out since the townsfolk are readying their torches and the hardware store has run out of pitchforks."
***
I was born and raised in the heart of the Bible Belt where you hear most of the "America is the greatest country in the world" chest-thumping. However, I escaped and have spent most of the last twenty years working, living, and traveling in over 40 countries around the world. I've found that there is an almost perfect inverse relationship between the amount of time someone has spent actually living and understanding other countries vs. blind patriotism.
Very rarely do you hear any neo-con or Tea Party member talk about anytime they've spent living or traveling overseas. Most of them appear to have empty passports if they have one at all. And if they have traveled overseas, then it was either to a U.S. military base or as part of a very short business trip carefully monitored and directed by foreign hosts.
Conservatives experience with foreign cultures reminds me of the time Sarah Palin flew over ANWAR in a helicopter and suggested that wildlife was doing okay.
Ironically their approach toward "love of country" is most similar to Muslim fundamentalists approach toward religion. Don't listen to any outside information. If anyone even discusses opposite viewpoints, immediately shun them and call them "infidels". Even in the face of obvious scientific or logical reasoning, deny it and blame the messenger.
Many of these posts appear to prove my point. Kinsley's article is hardly an "America sucks" piece. It's a reasonably thought out article that clearly claims that the "best country in the world" may not apply in all cases to the United States. And it's a foolish debate to have anyway. Yet so many posters read his piece and immediately throw up the old "liberal journalist" insult and continue to bury their heads in the sand without offering any comparisons to other countries.
***
"I cannot believe the comments on this article. I am a middle American, culturally conservative American from the heart of the heartland (yes, we use that term). I enjoy pheasant hunting, fishing, and football. I'm a college graduate, but from a local university, not a big elite one on the coasts. I go to church. I am shocked and afraid for the US after reading these comments. American greatness was based on the hard work of our forebears and a bit of luck. We were not destined to be great. If we quit working hard, we will fall. We already have fallen. We cannot allow ourselves to believe that we are "the only free country" or the only ones with protections of the freedoms we value. We are no longer the freest. Free speech, our most cherished freedom, is better protected by many of our European allies and certainly our friends in Canada. Freedom of religion is as well, as our recent willingness to exclude Islam from this right shows. Overall, we rank at about 20-25 among the world's countries. Yes, there is strong immigration from poorer Latin American countries, but there is also strong immigration into Europe from poorer African and Middle Eastern countries. The fact is that people move to where they can make marginally more money. I don't see many people moving from rich countries like Norway to come live in the US, unless doing so is to run a company If we fail to see the reality of the situation, that we are becoming less free with things like the Patriot Act, less transparent in our government, and continue to have a lower quality of education, we will continue to move down the list of the most desirable countries. If people live within their delusions, blindly believing we operate under a different set of rules simply because we are the US, we'll fall even farther before we even recognize what has happened. We're not special simply because we're born here. If you still believe we are the unquestionable the greatest country on earth, visit Canada, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Australia, and Finland. Ask those people if they would freely give up their citizenship to become Americans. I promise you, very few would because most of those citizens value their lower crime rates, better protection of civil liberties and human rights, and greater equality. In many cases, they have better business too! Sweden has Saab, IKEA, and Finland has Nokia. The fact is the so-called socialists are out performing us at capitalism. Why? Because we're fat, lazy, ignorant, and our education has failed us! Franklin and Jefferson were brilliant, but now we value absolute stupidity and ignorance of the issues. If you can't see what is going on, you are not a patriot, you are a traitor. You've betrayed Franklin, Jefferson, and the rest of the founders. God Bless America, but if we continue to live in a world outside the facts, the world will pass us by. WAKE UP! It's not 1955 anymore and America isn't number one at everything! Our own failure to see the world for what it is is why we are self-destructive. Please, get over yourselves before it's too late."
***
Excellent article that reveals the truth. I first visited the United States in 1990 and was keen on obtaining a green card to work there. At the time, I was working on a newspaper in Hong Kong (which I still do). I stayed with a friend near Johnson City in Tennessee and really enjoyed the lifestyle. However, I was surprised how little people in the area earned compared to Hong Kong. My pre-visit impressions of the US came from watching TV or reading newspapers, and they portrayed a country of abundant milk and honey. A salary I was offered by a newspaper, admittedly not in a big city, did not come close to what I was earning in Hong Kong. I earned two-and-a-half times what I was offered in the US and, in addition, only paid 12% in income tax. The cost of living was marginally higher in Hong Kong (current monthly rent for my two-bedroomed flat is US$550) but, quite frankly, financially there was no race; I was far better off in Asia. That is not to say that I am anti-American. I have good friends there and have enjoyed my visits. The problem appears that many Americans are fooled by propaganda from politicians. What exactly does "I want my Country Back" mean? Or why would anyone want to vote for someone because he or she would be nice to have a beer with? The rich reside in Congress and the average American suffers. The idea that Americans live in the best country in the world is nonsense. People in the Scandanavian countries are far better off and so are people in many Asian nations. The United States and Europe are not attractive options for expatriates. If Americans doubt whether what your article says is true, they should study the international statistics and see where the US ranks in education, earnings, human rights, corruption, cost of living etc compared to other countries. A major surprise awaits.
***
Then there are a whole bunch of these...
"Sometimes id love to beat a liberal to within an inch of their lives. This topic is what youd expect to hear from europeans whos inferiority complex and lack of knowledge about what makes Americans tick. It is sad to see Americans echo this crap.
We are the greatest nation ever. There is no contest. If anyone cant see that, then they are either stupid or have an agenda to weaken America. We are exceptional and being proud of it is our right. Those who denounce us as fascist, racist, and no longer a democracy make me laugh. It is not the reality. We made mistakes, but we have done 100X more good than bad. Our achievements speak for themseves. If there was no America; Europeans, asians, africans ect. the world would be way different. They had no idea about citizens rights, rule of law, freedoms ect. till we showed them. We saved the world twice in the 20th century. Send more aid to poor nations then all other nations put together. But, im wasting my time trying to explain since liberals never let facts get in the way of truth."
*
"It is not conceit to say that the U.S. is the greatest country ever. American people do not claim to be any better than any other nation of people. Americans claim that our unique democratic system, nearly free market place economy and a heritage of individualism has been exceptionally successful."
***
"The posters to this article provide further proof, as if its needed, that many Conservatives are some of most insecure, myopic people on the planet. The genius of talk radio and Fox News is the understanding that so many Conservatives need their egos stroked on a daily basis or they simply wouldn't be able to function. They wouldn't be able to get out of bed in the morning, deal with their kids, or hold a job unless they believed with religious zeal that they were special and were living in the most special of special places. In this way they seem to have the equivalent emotional health of my 7 year-old daughter. And about the same level of self-awareness. So Bravo to you, Kinsley. Better watch out since the townsfolk are readying their torches and the hardware store has run out of pitchforks."
***
I was born and raised in the heart of the Bible Belt where you hear most of the "America is the greatest country in the world" chest-thumping. However, I escaped and have spent most of the last twenty years working, living, and traveling in over 40 countries around the world. I've found that there is an almost perfect inverse relationship between the amount of time someone has spent actually living and understanding other countries vs. blind patriotism.
Very rarely do you hear any neo-con or Tea Party member talk about anytime they've spent living or traveling overseas. Most of them appear to have empty passports if they have one at all. And if they have traveled overseas, then it was either to a U.S. military base or as part of a very short business trip carefully monitored and directed by foreign hosts.
Conservatives experience with foreign cultures reminds me of the time Sarah Palin flew over ANWAR in a helicopter and suggested that wildlife was doing okay.
Ironically their approach toward "love of country" is most similar to Muslim fundamentalists approach toward religion. Don't listen to any outside information. If anyone even discusses opposite viewpoints, immediately shun them and call them "infidels". Even in the face of obvious scientific or logical reasoning, deny it and blame the messenger.
Many of these posts appear to prove my point. Kinsley's article is hardly an "America sucks" piece. It's a reasonably thought out article that clearly claims that the "best country in the world" may not apply in all cases to the United States. And it's a foolish debate to have anyway. Yet so many posters read his piece and immediately throw up the old "liberal journalist" insult and continue to bury their heads in the sand without offering any comparisons to other countries.
***
"I cannot believe the comments on this article. I am a middle American, culturally conservative American from the heart of the heartland (yes, we use that term). I enjoy pheasant hunting, fishing, and football. I'm a college graduate, but from a local university, not a big elite one on the coasts. I go to church. I am shocked and afraid for the US after reading these comments. American greatness was based on the hard work of our forebears and a bit of luck. We were not destined to be great. If we quit working hard, we will fall. We already have fallen. We cannot allow ourselves to believe that we are "the only free country" or the only ones with protections of the freedoms we value. We are no longer the freest. Free speech, our most cherished freedom, is better protected by many of our European allies and certainly our friends in Canada. Freedom of religion is as well, as our recent willingness to exclude Islam from this right shows. Overall, we rank at about 20-25 among the world's countries. Yes, there is strong immigration from poorer Latin American countries, but there is also strong immigration into Europe from poorer African and Middle Eastern countries. The fact is that people move to where they can make marginally more money. I don't see many people moving from rich countries like Norway to come live in the US, unless doing so is to run a company If we fail to see the reality of the situation, that we are becoming less free with things like the Patriot Act, less transparent in our government, and continue to have a lower quality of education, we will continue to move down the list of the most desirable countries. If people live within their delusions, blindly believing we operate under a different set of rules simply because we are the US, we'll fall even farther before we even recognize what has happened. We're not special simply because we're born here. If you still believe we are the unquestionable the greatest country on earth, visit Canada, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Australia, and Finland. Ask those people if they would freely give up their citizenship to become Americans. I promise you, very few would because most of those citizens value their lower crime rates, better protection of civil liberties and human rights, and greater equality. In many cases, they have better business too! Sweden has Saab, IKEA, and Finland has Nokia. The fact is the so-called socialists are out performing us at capitalism. Why? Because we're fat, lazy, ignorant, and our education has failed us! Franklin and Jefferson were brilliant, but now we value absolute stupidity and ignorance of the issues. If you can't see what is going on, you are not a patriot, you are a traitor. You've betrayed Franklin, Jefferson, and the rest of the founders. God Bless America, but if we continue to live in a world outside the facts, the world will pass us by. WAKE UP! It's not 1955 anymore and America isn't number one at everything! Our own failure to see the world for what it is is why we are self-destructive. Please, get over yourselves before it's too late."
***
Excellent article that reveals the truth. I first visited the United States in 1990 and was keen on obtaining a green card to work there. At the time, I was working on a newspaper in Hong Kong (which I still do). I stayed with a friend near Johnson City in Tennessee and really enjoyed the lifestyle. However, I was surprised how little people in the area earned compared to Hong Kong. My pre-visit impressions of the US came from watching TV or reading newspapers, and they portrayed a country of abundant milk and honey. A salary I was offered by a newspaper, admittedly not in a big city, did not come close to what I was earning in Hong Kong. I earned two-and-a-half times what I was offered in the US and, in addition, only paid 12% in income tax. The cost of living was marginally higher in Hong Kong (current monthly rent for my two-bedroomed flat is US$550) but, quite frankly, financially there was no race; I was far better off in Asia. That is not to say that I am anti-American. I have good friends there and have enjoyed my visits. The problem appears that many Americans are fooled by propaganda from politicians. What exactly does "I want my Country Back" mean? Or why would anyone want to vote for someone because he or she would be nice to have a beer with? The rich reside in Congress and the average American suffers. The idea that Americans live in the best country in the world is nonsense. People in the Scandanavian countries are far better off and so are people in many Asian nations. The United States and Europe are not attractive options for expatriates. If Americans doubt whether what your article says is true, they should study the international statistics and see where the US ranks in education, earnings, human rights, corruption, cost of living etc compared to other countries. A major surprise awaits.
***
Then there are a whole bunch of these...
"Sometimes id love to beat a liberal to within an inch of their lives. This topic is what youd expect to hear from europeans whos inferiority complex and lack of knowledge about what makes Americans tick. It is sad to see Americans echo this crap.
We are the greatest nation ever. There is no contest. If anyone cant see that, then they are either stupid or have an agenda to weaken America. We are exceptional and being proud of it is our right. Those who denounce us as fascist, racist, and no longer a democracy make me laugh. It is not the reality. We made mistakes, but we have done 100X more good than bad. Our achievements speak for themseves. If there was no America; Europeans, asians, africans ect. the world would be way different. They had no idea about citizens rights, rule of law, freedoms ect. till we showed them. We saved the world twice in the 20th century. Send more aid to poor nations then all other nations put together. But, im wasting my time trying to explain since liberals never let facts get in the way of truth."
*
"It is not conceit to say that the U.S. is the greatest country ever. American people do not claim to be any better than any other nation of people. Americans claim that our unique democratic system, nearly free market place economy and a heritage of individualism has been exceptionally successful."
"I'm not a skeptic because I want to believe, I'm a skeptic because I want to know." --Michael Shermer