Mr D comes back for another shellacking. Good roast below.
Starts here (alpha cat is posting good stuff too).
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MD: "You say you have not argued for atheism,>>
Right, no arguments put forward for atheism. Would you like to see some?
MD: "enormous amount of time and energy espousing... there is no God.">>
You should read more carefully. There probably is no God, oh well, boring. Next issue.
MD: "You are anti-Christian all the way.">>
Not at all. I think Christians are great. "Some of my best friends are Christian." But I don't agree with their theological assertions very much. That is allowed you know. Nothing personal.
MD; "criticise preachers for being money grabbers,>>
Never did. But that's pretty obviously true in a lot of cases. Do you have a TV?
MD: "religion as controling people by fear,>>
Bigtime.
MD: "What do you care what I believe?">>
When you post errors in a public forum that allows dissent, I offer my gentle corrections.
MD: "What's in it for you?">>
Truth and accuracy are important.
MD: "You say God is a liar...">>
Better than that, I cited scripture where he admitted to using deception.
MD: "you are too proud to admit that you could possibly be wrong about anything.">>
Much better than that, I will admit I could be wrong about EVERYTHING. But I would need to see very good reasons. And you don't have any of those.
ME: "About the chicken...>>
Just be honest and accurate with language. It's not useful to use false loaded language when discussing abortion.
MD: "Cutting toenails is not quite the same as [abortion].>>
And no one suggested it was.
MD: "The definition of when a baby becomes a person is man-made,">>
All definitions are man made.
More importantly, neither the Bible nor our modern society, define a fetus as a person or provide it the rights and protections of personhood. See reasons already given.
D.
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MrD comes back for more and HB drops by to dust his feet before ducking away.
MD: "You don't have to state something in direct terms in order to get your point across.">>
Yes, but it helps.
MD: "taking scripture out of context is using deception,">>
If you can demonstrate an example of someone doing this, please do. I say, the more context the better. It usually makes your position worse. Try it and see.
MD; "do you use [God's] name in using swear words?">>
Good God no!
MD: "You question the content of the Bible because of its age.">>
Nope, never did. I question claims that are demonstrably false. Did you figure out how many of the fowls Noah was commanded to take on his boat? You have two choices (Gen. 6:20, vs. Gen 7:3).
Some people confuse the age of a document with it's authenticity. Paine had a good answer to this:
"It is not the antiquity of a tale that is any evidence of its truth; on the contrary, it is a symptom of its being fabulous; for the more ancient any history pretends to be the more it has the resemblance of a fable. The origin of every nation is buried in fabulous tradition, and that of the Jews is as much to be suspected as any other." -Age of Reason, pg. 104
MD: "Your rebuttal is quite lame and somewhat juvenile">>
If this were true, you wouldn't need to state it, you could demonstrate it. That's what I do.
MD: "When you prove to me that a rock created itself from nothing">>
The process by which rocks are created is well understood. You can learn about this here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_(ge...)
MD: "say Hi to Hitler,...">>
You really shouldn't judge your fellow Christians before the time comes. As shown above in this thread, Hitler and his Nazis were very adamant and forthright about their Christian beliefs. See the 24th principle of the Nazi Party for starters.
MD: "I will not be there [in hell] to enjoy them with you.">>
Of course not. You're special.
And then hbcark drops by to dust his feet off once more. Just how much dust can two feet hold?
Hey HB, have you found one of your "moral absolutes" yet? Have you figured out what one is yet?
***
MrD: "Wikipedia is really RELIABLE!">>
This is the genetic fallacy. Truth is independent of it's source. Best to avoid logical fallacies and instead respond to the information rather than smear the source. Wikipedia is a secondary source and you will find main claims well referenced in the footnotes. Rock formation isn't exactly "controversial."
With a touch of irony, see also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliabil...
MrD: "As to Hitler and Christianity...he was as anti-christian as he could be.">>
Actually, you are as misinformed as you could be. Here are a few additional examples:
"Hitler was a Roman Catholic, baptized into that religious institution... He became a communicant and an altar boy in his youth and was confirmed as a "soldier of Christ" in that church.
Hitler's Germany amalgamated state with church. Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. It was a real Christian country whose citizens were indoctrinated by both state and church and blindly followed all authority figures, political and ecclesiastical.
Hitler, like some of the r-wing today, politicized "family values." He liked corporeal punishment in home and school. Jesus prayers became mandatory in all schools under his administration... He openly despised homosexuality and criminalized it."
--Free Inquiry
All SS members were required to say an oath to (your) God.
He wrote in Mein Kampf, "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." His book is filled with biblical and Christian references.
He informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." (never excommunicated)
Hitler specifically targeted the atheists:
"A campaign against the 'godless movement' and an appeal for Catholic support were launched by Chancellor Adolf Hitler's forces."
--AP, 2/23/1933
Hitler opposed secular schools:
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith. . . we need believing people." (Hitler speech, April 26, 1933)
His Nazis were explicitly Christian, The 24th principle of the Nazi Party, from the Twenty Five Points (1920): "We demand the freedom of religion in the Reich so long as they do not
endanger the position of the state or adversely affect the moral standards of the German race. As such the Party represents a positively Christian position without binding itself to one particular faith."
I have lots more on this if you're interested. It's a bit of a specialty.
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MrD: "I made a study of the Third Reich and Hitler.">>
Did Josh McDowell write a chapter on it? If you paid someone, you need to get your money back.
MrD: "Hitler could not have done the atrocities he did if he had any real belief...">>
Right, because history furnishes no examples of Christianity committing atrocities. Oops, here are a few hundred:
http://notachristian.org/christianatr...
Have you read the Hebrew scriptures? Slaughtering those who think differently is the theme. Same as the New Testament, except it gets them with eternal fire.
MrD: "you cannot name or point to one thing [Hitler] did that reflected the life of a Christian.">>
Just because you have some doctrinal disagreements, is it really necessary to judge him so harshly and throw your fellow Christian under the bus?
MrD: "If [no God] then you have no sense of responsibility to anyone but yourself.">>
Not unlike you. Imagining a moral system based upon a magical being, doesn't change the situation.
MrD: "If there is no God,... then there are no consequences for lying.">>
No, that doesn't follow. Non sequiter fallacy. Best to avoid logical fallacies. Actions resulting from lying have nothing to do with whether a God exists or not (and we already covered that bit about Him lying).
MrD: "Hitler hated the church...">>
Hitler hated people who didn't support him. But the German Christians very much supported him. He was one of them.
Dr. Franklin Littell of Baylor University speaking at US Holocaust Memorial Museum, on 12/8/93 notes:
"[The truth is that] six million Jews were targeted and systematically murdered in the heart of Christendom, by baptized Roman Catholics, Protestants, and Eastern Orthodox who were never rebuked, let alone excommunicated."
Friedrich Heer, Roman Catholic professor of history at Vienna University:
"In the cold facts of German history, the Cross and the swastika came ever closer together, until the swastika proclaimed the message of victory from the towers of German cathedrals, swastika flags appeared round altars and Catholic and Protestant theologians, pastors, churchmen and statesmen welcomed the alliance with Hitler."
"Of about thirty-two Million German Catholics--fifteen and a half million of whom were men--only seven [individuals] openly refused military service. Six of these were Austrians."
Paul Johnson's "History of Christianity" notes: "Of 17,000 Evangelical pastors, there were never more than fifty serving long term [for not supporting the Nazi regime] at any one time."
cont...
"It may be truthfully recalled that Christian churches, throughout the ages, have always consented to bless war, troops, and arms and that they prayed in a very unchristian for the annihilation of their enemy." --Martin Neimoeller, a rare church leader who actually did stand up to Hitler.
"Susannah Heschel, professor of Judaic studies, uncovered church documents proving that the Lutheran clergy were willing, yes anxious, to support Hitler. She said they begged for the privilege of displaying the swastika in their churches. The overwhelming majority of clergymen were not coerced collaborators, her research showed, but were enthusiastic supporters of Hitler and his Aryan ideals."
From the 1933 Nazi Concordat with the Catholic Church:
"Article 21. Catholic religious instruction in elementary, senior, secondary and vocational schools constitutes a regular portion of the curriculum, and is to be taught in accordance with the principles of the Catholic Church. In religious instruction, special care will be taken to inculcate patriotic, civic and social consciousness and sense of duty in the spirit of the Christian Faith and the moral code, precisely as in the case of other subjects."
After all, who knows how badly those Nazis might have acted had they not had a good religious moral code to lean upon.
This comment seems appropriate here:
“The receptivity of the great masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous...” --Hitler, Mein Kampf, pg. 180
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MrD: "[Non-christians don't] know what a Christian is.">>
Thank goodness MrD is here to tell us what a "True Christian TM" is. Here is a useful definition:
CHRISTIAN, n.
"One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin."
-BIERCE, Ambrose
MrD: "Only a child of God can really know the substance of a Christian life.">>
Yes, and we only have 30,000 different versions of Christianity that "really know" what that is.
MrD: "Anyone who would argue that Hitler was a Christian is [insult]">>
I gave you at least a dozen lines of evidence showing Hitler, the nazis and Germany were at that time overwhelmingly Christian and quite zealous about it. It makes you furious that you have no response other than to throw insults.
The record in this thread has revealed that that you don't get "dirty" when you interact with informed secular folks, you get schooled.
MrD: "an utter fool, or a liar.">>
When you get a little more mature in your exchanges you may learn that such insults don't reveal anything about the person you are attempting to smear, they only reveal something about you.
Mrd: "those who say there is no God do not hesitate to quote scripture.">>
Who in this thread said there is no God? Careful readers will note how MrD keeps trying to draw the conversation into something about atheism. Someone might be a little insecure about that notion.
MrD: "How can God be a liar if there is no God?">>
You don't understand how a fictional character in a story could participate in lying? Have you ever read a novel MrD?
MrD: "you say that He is a liar.">>
No, I quote where He says it:
"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath
spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that
prophet..." Ezekiel 14:9 and 1 Kings 22:23
MrD: "It would seem that an... existence would be necessary [to] lie>>
It would seem you don't understand that characters in books can be said to lie, whether they exist in reality or not.
MrD: "how safe would you be if you were able to convince the whole world that there is no God?">>
Excellent question. The record shows that societies that are more secular and less religious, function much better and have superior moral results in that they are more successful at dealing with moral societal problems. This is true both internationally and when you look at the state by state level. Art Hobson had an excellent article about this which you can read
here:
Currently about 1/2 of Europe is godless and we are tending strongly in that direction. It is easy to show how society is far more moral than it was a century or two centuries ago.
cont...
MrD: "Whose word is more reliable...someone like you, or a good, moral Christian person?">>
I think your record in this thread has already revealed this.
MrD: "Christians, do not fear death...>>
Sure they don't. They're so terrified they devote their entire lives to creating and sustaining an imaginary realm where they don't have to "really" die (even though it sure looks exactly like they do).
Mrd: "You are a [insult], [insult] [insult],...">>
“Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;” 1 Peter 3:15
MrD: "I am... ending any further comments with you...>>
If you ever find you can support your claims, don't hesitate to come back.
And one little note. You've gotten very sensitive, defensive and insulting when your shining errors are pointed out, but your charge that those who disagree with your fundamentalist beliefs are liars, anti-Christian, evil etc., are nonsense. I don't hold any beliefs regarding the Bible that are not supported by standard, mainstream, Christian scholarship taught in religious studies in every major university in America, as well as every major theological seminary independent of fundamentalist financial pressure. You don't know this because your Bible scholarship is at least a century and a half out of date. You should do something about that. Perhaps start with a library card.
D.
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"There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably, some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he does not dare face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not real, he becomes furious when they are disputed." --Bertrand Russell
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Don't Fear Fundamentalists thread on NWAonline
"I'm not a skeptic because I want to believe, I'm a skeptic because I want to know." --Michael Shermer