Jesus Nutbars of the Future

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Jesus Nutbars of the Future

Post by Dardedar »

We have our own radical Madrassahs. Check out this new movie, Jesus Camp.

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***
Children at the evangelical Christian summer camp run by Becky Fischer pray over a cardboard cutout of President George W. Bush to make this “one country under God,” break white coffee cups with hammers to show they’re at war with the government and chant “Righteous Judges!” in protest of abortion.

Fischer sees nothing wrong with indoctrinating children as young as 6-years-old she says in the documentary “Jesus Camp” released at the Tribeca Film Festival in New York City a week ago.

There it garnered an “Oustanding Achievement in Documentaries” award. Variety magazine also named it one of the top 10 films of the festival.

“The Extreme liberals, they have to look at this and start shaking in their boots at what these kids will be like when they grow up,” Fischer says in the film. “If you want to see intense kids, passionate for Christ, this is it.”

Ted Haggard, head of the National Association of evangelicals, says in the movie children are fueling a boom in his churches that would continue to have a profound effect on U.S. politics.

“There’s a new church like this every two days,” he says. “It’s got enough growth to essentially sway every election. If the evangelicals vote, they determine the election.”

Pensacola trial attorney Mike Papantonio, a Methodist and Air America Radio “Ring of Fire” radio talk show host, takes on the evangelicals at several points in the documentary.

Filmed in his Pensacola radio studio, he says the religious right is destroying youth and American democracy.

“They’re training Christian soldiers for the Republican Party,” Papantonio says in “Jesus Camp.” “How does that fit with God’s message? God has a special place for those who mess with kids and it’s not a pretty place.”

Recently, the Independent News viewed the 87-minute documentary directed by Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady at the Levin Papantonio law office’s sixth floor conference room in downtown Pensacola.

During an election year, the film shows just how political evangelical Christians, which are estimated to number 75 million in the United States, have become.

In fact, it’s estimated 25 million evangelicals voted in the 2004 presidential election with 80 percent voting Republican.

Papantonio labels it a “religious-political army.”

“We have been asleep at the wheel, while the political fundamentalists have gained power over our country,” he laments in the film.

The eerie or wonderful film, depending on your religious perspective, follows Fischer and the recruitment and training of three children Levi, 12, Rachel, 9, and Tory, 10.

The three kids are seen at home, a bowling alley, going to camp and then crisscrossing the country from an evangelical church headed by Haggard in Colorado Springs, Colo., to praying outside a Kansas abortion clinic and finally protesting abortion with red tape with “life” written on it taped over their mouths as they pray outside the Supreme Court in Washington, D.C.

“You could call it brainwashing, but I am radical and passionate in teaching children about their responsibility as Christians, as God-fearing people, as Americans,” says Fischer, who at one point denies indoctrinating children politically but then admits it.

In the end, viewers can decide in the very matter-of-fact film whether it’s OK to turn children into Christian soldiers, like Fischer does, or not.

Link

***

Here is the website. The video preview is especially good:

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

Pastor Fisher: I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are over in Pakistan and Israel and Palestine and all those different places.

Kid: You know a lot of people die for God and stuff and they’re not even afraid…
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Post by Barbara Fitzpatrick »

"Better were a millstone tied around their necks and be cast into the sea..."
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Post by Dardedar »

Picture a World Free From Religion:

http://ffrf.org/
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Post by Barbara Fitzpatrick »

I have no idea whether or not in a world free from religion New York City would have been built at all, much less the Towers still be standing, but the clip is absolutely right about what happens when the lines between state and religion are erased.
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Post by JD Allen »

richardawkins.net has a great review of the film up.
Surviving 'Jesus Camp'
by Josh Timonen

"Raise your hand if you think that God can do anything!"

Pastor Becky Fischer throws her arm into the air as an example while darting her eyes back and forth over the children in the audience. She yells in a fake high-pitched voice like a sleazy, overly animated kid's show host and waits for them to imitate her answer. In one aisle a mother lifts the arm of her disinterested son, no more than 8 years old.

That, in a nutshell, is the whole problem.

I almost walked out of Jesus Camp during several scenes; it was that hard to watch. As I listened to conversations around the theatre before the film, I was pleased to find myself in a fairly secular group. Not much of a surprise, considering we’re in Hollywood. I stopped and wondered how the opening nights were in fundamentalist Christian towns such as Colorado Springs, Colorado.

Jesus Camp is a straightforward documentary, with no narrator or fancy cutting to present an opinion. The footage really does speak for itself. The film follows a group of children born into Evangelical Christian families as they prepare for and later attend the "Kid's on Fire" camp in Devil's Lake (I'm not making this up), North Dakota.

We meet a young boy in an oversized t-shirt who is lounging in front of the television at home. He's watching a "Creation Adventures" video for children, and with a commanding baritone voice it falsely instructs that the earth was formed 6,000 years ago by you-guessed-who. Thankfully, in my theatre this received a roaring round of laughter. The narrator makes a joke about how ‘some people say’ we came from ‘slime,’ and he puts on a ridiculous face as he holds up his two hands covered in a silly green goop. We later see this boy's mother looking through a 3-ring study binder at the dinner table, quizzing her son on what to say if someone tries to tell him that global warming is real(?!?). He knows the answer to this one, and with a smile tells his mother how he would reply: the temperature has only risen half a degree over some recent time period, and that this isn’t a big deal. It was as if he was doing his nightly homework, with his mother at his side. I sort of missed what the boy specifically said. I had already blown a gasket and was yelling at the screen after the ridiculous global warming question the mother had asked - And from some 3-ring study binder no less!

Later we meet another camp attendee, a little girl who loves dancing. She is ashamed of when she sometimes dances "for the flesh" and has to correct herself, because everything she does must be for God.

At the church we see Pastor Becky Fischer in action with two boys (one was the boy watching the “Creation Adventures” video), recruiting them for the camp in the hallway with phrases such as "Right on, guys!" and "Totally cool!" Pastor Becky asks the boys if they plan on going to the camp, and they are. She tries out some other young trendy phrases in a high, affected voice, and gives them both a hug. Watching this I found myself growling out loud with anger like a dog after the mailman. My friend began elbowing me to keep it down.

Before camp begins, there is the blessing of the empty chairs, the electricity, and a PowerPoint presentation. It was much-needed comic relief, and my theatre laughed together for a moment.

The camp begins and it is pure madness. One of the first points of business is to condemn every child's favorite "warlock". Pastor Becky explains that "had he been in the Old Testament, Harry Potter would have been put to death!" (Thank goodness we’ve got that straightened out).

The children are all so eager to please, and this element of the film is the most difficult for me. If the adults decided to hand out the special Kool-Aid at this camp, the children would all unquestionably partake. With arms in the air, they are 'instructed' on how to let the spirit take over their bodies and speak in tongues. The children imitate. Many of them cry. Some fall to the ground and shake on the floor in what looks like an epileptic seizure. More cry. I wanted to cry with them, or more accurately for them. This all looked very unhealthy, I could only imagine what it was doing to them psychologically. I had the striking thought that this was all completely unforgivable. These adults, no matter their intentions, were performing horrific acts of mental child abuse.

Then comes the guilt, and mountains of it. "A lot of you say you're Christians, but how many of you are leading two separate lives?" Pastor Becky lays it on thick over the PA. She leads the children on through ideas of what they might be sinfully doing at school with their friends, and how they should be ashamed of themselves for it. I considered vomiting into my drink cup. She asks the children to gather around her and reach out their hands if they wish to be cleansed of these newly uncovered sins. Their cleansing source: A 20 oz. bottle of Nestlé-brand water poured over their grouped hands. Talk about product placement! There is of course more crying. There is more of me yelling at the screen, and more of my friend elbowing me in embarrassment.

They bring in a life-size cardboard cutout of President Bush in front of a big American flag, and the children are instructed to bless him and speak in tongues for him (or perhaps at him, I’m not exactly sure how this is supposed to work). Everyone performs as directed.

Suddenly, I was shocked to find a sense of relief wash over me. "Don’t worry,” I thought, “This is all a dream that you’ve had before! This is the one where the crazy Christians are with you on an airplane that is about to crash, and then Natalie Portman tells you-" No, wait, this is really happening! Can it possibly be?

A 'Pro-Life' speaker visits the camp and explains how "God doesn't care about how small the baby is, it is still a person and a soul, even if it's just protoplasm..." he pauses to pan the young crowd with a cartoon-ish, bug-eyed smile before delivering his punch line: "...whatever that is!" Some in the theatre laughed, and some screamed. Things had become so unbelievable that the audience was just making whatever sounds were possible in their collective state of shock. The 'Pro-Life' man passed around a boxed set of plastic fetuses at different stages of development (do they sell these at Christian Supply stores?!). He then placed red gaffe tape with the word 'LIFE' written on it over each child's mouth in preparation for their protest in front of the US Capitol Building. I had to step back for a second. They are placing gaffe tape over a child's mouth, and the child is then persuaded to interpret this as a positive, meaningful experience. 'Let the church decide what goes in place of my personal thoughts and voice.' It's a sad metaphor for how these children are kept from thinking for themselves, and a sad irony how their 'LIFE', the only one they'll ever have, is truly what they are missing out on by accepting these dogmatic restrictions.

The sermons are rife with politics, and Pastor Becky leads the children in chilling chants such as "One nation under God!" and "Righteous Judges!" She preaches of war and the mission for their "key generation." She asks if they would lay down their lives for Jesus, and I'm sure you can imagine the children's eager response. As Pastor Becky later explains to the interviewer,

"I want to see young people who are as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ as the young people are to the cause of Islam. I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are over in Pakistan and Israel and Palestine and all those different places... Excuse me, but we have the truth!"

No need to decipher her statements, no need for clever video cuts to accentuate the parallels. She spells it out for everyone, and it’s jaw droppingly crystal clear through a megaphone. Let’s call it religious fundamentalism, Coke and Pepsi.

The film even makes a quick visit to Ted Haggard's New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado, just in case you were able to keep your lunch down this far into the film. In his sequel appearance to ‘The Root of All Evil?’ Ted is as creepy as ever, speaking directly to the camera as they attempt to film one of his mega-sermons. “If you try and use any of this I’ll sue you!” he says perhaps half-jokingly, followed by an expected laugh from his flock. Ted even gets in his little sound byte about some people ‘calling children animals.’ He yelled this same phrase at Dawkins and his film crew in ‘The Root of All Evil?’ while chasing them away from the church in his pickup truck, and I wondered how frequently he replays that confrontation over in his mind.

'Jesus Camp' speaks without commentary like an ice pick to the heart and mind. In the United States we are in the presence of a dangerous and powerful Evangelical Christian movement that runs from local churches all the way to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Unless a person is steeped in such fundamentalism, I think viewers will come away from 'Jesus Camp' with an extreme sense of urgency for rational organization and action against this spreading virus. Maybe the film can shed light on the horrible indoctrination of these poor children. Some of them will escape their parent's religion, but too many will stay to repeat the memetic cycle with another generation of eager and impressionable young boys and girls.

We can always walk out of the movie theatre, but Ted Haggard, Becky Fisher, President Bush and millions of Evangelicals will be waiting for us in the real world, and how we handle their rising brand of fundamentalism will likely shape our nation and the world for generations to come.
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Post by Barbara Fitzpatrick »

Timonen's last line talks about how we can walk out of the theater, but the Bushes and Rev. Beckys are out there. Yes, we can walk away from them - but the kids can't. How do you go about, in a free society, protecting chidren from their parents? Trying to do that is what has the wingnuts still foaming at the mouth at any mention of Hillary Clinton. It's their "faith" and they have the legal right to it. Part of that "faith" is indoctrination of their children. What rights do children have? And would they thank you for separating them from their mentally-abusive parents? Turning kids "against" their parents is always numbered with the evils of Adolf Hitler - and is a tactic noted in "1984" - so how do we protect ourselves and them at the same time. What's the answer? Is there one?
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Post by GOPRazorback »

Holy Crap! You dont hear Christians saying you should seperate children from Athiest parents. I am glad i came over here to shine the light of logic http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/logic onto this mess. Bringing up your children to believe the same things you do is a practice as old as time itself. And in an interesting side note, those who are overly pushed in any direction tend to eventually rebel. So if you think that the children here are being pushed too hard in a certain direction they will probably end up on your side of this issue in the end.[/url]
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Post by Savonarola »

GOPRazorback wrote:Bringing up your children to believe the same things you do is a practice as old as time itself.
Time's pretty old. Much older than mankind, actually. But I'm guessing you weren't taught that as a kid. If people had been doing that for a long, long time, though, it would be okay, right?

Please tell me more about logic, won't you? Pretty please? Your superiority complex coupled with your inability to use BBCode just isn't entertaining enough...
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Post by Dardedar »

GOPRazorback wrote: Bringing up your children to believe the same things you do is a practice as old as time itself.
DAR
Yeah, and how is that working out? I mean, when the Taliban types teach ignorance, intolerance hatred and cruelty to the kiddies? You can probably see that this is not so good. And when the Christian fundies do it the results are similar. We get an ignorant, intolerant superstitious populace.
I didn't read the entire Dawkins review because I don't want it to spoil the movie for me. I know Dawkins considers religious indoctrination forced upon young children (especially the extreme varieties that teach ignorance, intolerance and hatred) a form of child abuse. And he's right.

And as someone pointed out elsewhere:

"...there are studies that clearly link having been abused with turning into an abuser.
Kids learn what they live. A child who is abused, emotionally, physically, or sexually, is much more likely to grow up and do to others what was done to him."

So the pedophelia, like fundamentalism, gets passed along like a virus of the mind.

D.
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Post by Guest »

Wow, is it fascenating that you say that anyone who tries to influence the world around them to make it a better place is a fundamentalist if that picture has any religious base. There are extremists in any religion, there are even extremists in the 'no religion' religion. And to compare fundamentalist Christians to pedophiles and Taliban is repugnant. Only the VERY extreme Christians would fit either of those catagories. Also, how I was brought up in relation to the age of the earth and time, I was brought up to believe evolution was a tool of God and that Genesis is like the parables that Christ used to teach the Apostles, a good story with a good point but not a direct history. Also, I was raised Catholic, not evangelical. Again I have to insert LOGIC (click for definition, I find libs need the definitions of words they don't understand) into this discussion. Only the most extreme want our great nation to be a religious state, but alot, I dare say a majority want to guarantee freedom of religion. not freedom from religion. Now all of you liberal thinkers (can you actually say that with a straight face?) think fast find me in the Constitution and not in some revisionist judge's decision but the document itself the words 'Seperation of Church and State'. Here is a hint... THEY ARE NOT THERE!
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Post by Barbara Fitzpatrick »

No, but separation of church and state is the explanation by the writers of the Constitution (not "some revisionist judge's decision) for why they included a "freedom of religion" clause. Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion as a subset. If a person is free from having any particular religion forced on him (or her), that means they are also free from having any religion at all forced on him (or her). That is logic, something folks like Guest keep claiming they use.

Guest and GOPRazorback show the extremist tendency to select a line here and a line there without bothering to read the entire piece or take things in context. Actually, I have heard christians say children should be separated from athiest parents. However, if GOPRazorback, in reading further, might have noted I commented on the problems with that solution, and posed the question of how to protect ourselves and them at the same time - the age-old question we progressives always face & "regressives" don't have to worry about, since they aren't at all worried about our rights, while we are worried about theirs.
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Post by Savonarola »

Anonymous wrote:Now all of you liberal thinkers (can you actually say that with a straight face?) think fast find me in the Constitution and not in some revisionist judge's decision but the document itself the words 'Seperation of Church and State'. Here is a hint... THEY ARE NOT THERE!
As soon as you find "democracy," "separation of powers," and "checks and balances," I'll find "separation of church and state."
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Post by Dardedar »

Anonymous wrote:...you say that anyone who tries to influence the world around them to make it a better place is a fundamentalist if that picture has any religious base.
DAR
Who said that? I didn't. Where did you read that?

GOP
And to compare fundamentalist Christians to pedophiles and Taliban is repugnant.

DAR
Fundie Christians, pedophiles and the Taliban are all repugnant. And fundie Christians are just a variation of the Taliban. Different hymn, same hymnal. And our fundies, and their fundies, spread their disease of the mind in the same manner and they do it on purpose. I don't think Pedophiles intend to start a cause and effect chain when they abuse so they spread their disease down the generations by accident.

GOP
Only the VERY extreme Christians would fit either of those catagories.

DAR
That's the ones I was talking about. If you have forgotten, go to the top of the thread and start again.

GOP
I was brought up to believe evolution was a tool of God and that Genesis is like the parables that Christ used to teach the Apostles,...

DAR
That's nice. But it does make for a Bible full of howling lies. At least the fundies are consistent.

GOP
a majority want to guarantee freedom of religion. not freedom from religion.

DAR
I want both.

GOP
...find me in the Constitution... the words 'Seperation of Church and State'. Here is a hint...THEY ARE NOT THERE![/quote]

DAR
Your question just shows your ignorance of how the document works. It's not going to contain a phrase for every issue it touches. We distribute a little tract that teaches people about this issue. Here is a pertinent excerpt:

***
Do the words "separation of church and state" appear in the Constitution?

The phrase, "a wall of separation between church and state," was coined by President Thomas Jefferson in a carefully crafted letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1802, when they had asked him to explain the First Amendment. The Supreme Court, and lower courts, have used Jefferson's phrase repeatedly in major decisions upholding neutrality in matters of religion. The exact words "separation of church and state" do not appear in the Constitution; neither do "separation of powers," "interstate commerce," "right to privacy," and other phrases describing well-established constitutional principles.
***

You should read the rest of it here:

Is America a Christian Nation?

Then get back to us.
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Post by Betsy »

This discussion reminds me of the editorial I posted a week or two ago, in which the editor of the NWA Times got his panties in a wad because Rosie O'Donnell said "radical Christians are just as bad as terrorists" or something like that -- he then went on to argue a case for Christianity, missing the whole point that she said "RADICAL Christians". These people who are doing these Jesus camps are obviously brainwashed to the extreme and are damaging their children and society because of it. They remind me of Jim Jones' followers in Guyana, back in the day, they are so brainwashed. We're not talking about your garden variety Christians here. (Although IMO there's a level of brainwashing going on there, too...)

And it sure is good to have a couple of dissenters around to get a good debate cooking. I love the way Darrel and others take apart the other side's argument and explain their points so well (except when I'm on the other side, that is...)
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Post by Savonarola »

Betsy wrote:This discussion reminds me of the editorial I posted a week or two ago, in which the editor of the NWA Times got his panties in a wad because Rosie O'Donnell said "radical Christians are just as bad as terrorists" or something like that ...
(That thread can be found here.)

On a similar note, I was reminded of a wonderful guest presentation we had at our most recent meeting that emphasized the differences between Bible-thumpin' fundies and their noticeably more sane Christian counterparts. Just as some hardcore skeptics ought to be reminded that not all religious people are nutjobs, some religious people need to be reminded that not all skeptics think that all religious people are nutjobs.
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Post by ChristianLoeschel »

The sad thing is, even though these extremists we're talking about are (arguably) comparably few in numbers, there is a huge crowd of enablers standing behind them. There are millions of sunday-christians defending these radicals in quiet approval (i.e. "They are just spreading the word of our Lord"), and even more people who realize this is wrong, but are unwilling to speak up because they either dont care enough, or refuse to go against their own religion.
How do you think the NSDAP was able to gain such utter control over Germany in the '30s and '40s? Sure, eventually by fear, but how did it start? Expanding the German homeland sounded good enough, and oh so patriotic. People were unwilling to stand up against the country they loved, granting their quiet approval.
Coincidentally, the Hitlerjugend was a largely parallel brainwashing program to the Jesus Camps...
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Post by Barbara Fitzpatrick »

It ultimately comes down to an issue of power. People who want it over everybody else start with slogans that sound good, then move to brainwashing - once they've gotten enough adults, those brainwashed adults then take over and make it generational by brainwashing the kids. It doesn't matter what the "cause" is, because whatever it is (Jesus, Mohammed, Fatherland, Mother Russia, American flag, etc), it's just a ruse to get people to support the power grab.
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Post by Dardedar »

How do you think the NSDAP was able to gain such utter control over Germany in the '30s and '40s? Sure, eventually by fear, but how did it start?
DAR
Thom Hartman (radio show) said the other day that Hitler claimed he needed to protect the homeland from Poland's WMD.
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Post by Dardedar »

Darrel wrote:DAR
Fundie Christians, pedophiles and the Taliban are all repugnant. And fundie Christians are just a variation of the Taliban.
DAR
I should clarify something I said here. I work with and have worked with fundies at the work place all of my life. They are mostly just like anyone else, usually fine people. Usually a little weak in the critical thinking department. I am speaking of intellectual repugnance, not the type of repugance we get from contemplating pedophiles. Fundies believe and promote ideas that have not the slightest chance of being true and they pass them on to their children with great diligence and sometimes force. To someone who really cares about truth (most of the populace doesn't) this is very repugnant.

Now, there is something a little intellectually repugnant about their theologically liberal counter parts as well. This would be ones who believe like GOPR, that you can cherry-pick the Bible and say the Old Testament, Adam & Eve were a parable and Jesus knew this. That doesn't work either. It makes no sense. If evolution is true and you have no Adam, no fall of man, you don't need Jesus to die for our sins and redeem mankind. What does that leave of Christianity and the comments attributed to Jesus? Not much.

And in defense of pedophiles... human sexuality, as diverse as it is, isn't remotely as bizarre as much of the rest of the animal kingdom. I have an excellent book called "Dr Tatiana's Sex Advice To All Creation". From the blurb:

It "fuses natural history with advice to the lovelorn, blends wit and rigor, and reassures her anxious correspondents that althought the acts they describe might sound appalling and unnatural, they are all perfectly normal--so long as you are not human. In the process, she explains the science behind it all,... by applying human standards to the natural world, the irrepressible Dr. Tatiana in the end reaveals the wonders of both."

It's hilarious and amazing. Human sexuality is tame! When we judge the sexuality of others we are just applying human standards (of course) to the natural world, and the natural world doesn't give a flip about our moral concerns. Nature, the animal kingdom, is filled with actions that are repugnant to our "morals". We rightly judge pedophilia as repugnant because of the terrible consequences for children but if you could remove that, and you can't, it is just another deviation of sexuality and a slight one if you consider it in the context of the rest of the animal kingdom. I have a friend who's dad was put away for 30 years for fiddling with some children. I felt sorry for him and was thankful that my inclinations are all legal. If we get the American Taliban in full power some day, maybe they won't be and you girls will have to trade in your clothes for the burka.

D.
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