My Letter to the Springfield News-Leader

[SherryH]

Have you found my blog yet?

Yes. All your blog contains is ranting and raving - and I can only take so much. Frankly, it gives me a headache. You're a religious fanatic.

I guess what intrigues me (your blog certainly doesn't) is your age and where your profile says you're in "education." You're an awfully young man to be so far gone into religion. It's kind of scary, because these things tend to progress without treatment (like mental illness.) And as for the "education": what is it that your do, exactly? Are you a preacher-man? Because all you seem to do is preach, preach, preach, lecture, lecture, lecture, unendingly. Sorry, but that won't change any freethinkers mind.

You're in the land of reason now. Beware . . .

[Dardedar]

DAR
The Udell post is most likely some kind of spam and run job posted to get traffic for his (insane) blog (notice how generic the comment is). But here is the link to the excellent Bible quiz.

D.

[tmiller51]

I read (or more accurately, scanned) his web page. When evaluating an article to read, I tend to scan it first to try to find the point of the article before devoting a lot of time to it. My reading comprehension skills are pretty good but I couldn't understand what he was trying to say, it just seemed like gibberish.

[Joshua Udell]

Glad to be here.

I hope we can get along and enjoy conversation.

Here is the Letter from the Springfield News-leader

Imagine with me for a moment.

There is no manger, there is no cross and there is no resurrection. If these are your beliefs you are not necessarily an atheist, you could be a Muslim. As the Quran teaches, Jesus was indeed a great prophet, but the cross was an illusion and angels rescued Jesus before he was executed on the cross. The prophet Jesus will return one day and when he does he will destroy all crosses.

These are not stories from Arabian Nights, this comes straight from the Quran. It is good to know that Muslim s indeed believe that Jesus existed and coming back.

But what does the atheist have to say?

You never hear them complain about Islam or their beliefs in Jesus. Simply put, an atheist wouldn't have a problem accepting Jesus as a good moral teacher, but their big itch is him being the Son of God.

So who would be harder to lead to Jesus as Messiah, a Jew, a Muslim or an atheist? A Jewish man would be disowned, a Muslim could be put to death, and the atheist would have to learn a whole new belief system. But there will come a day when the world will not have to answer, for they will all realize the whole truth about who Jesus is both Lion and Lamb of God.

http://m.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ ... 10398/1006

It's good to know this community has ideas to talk about.

[Joshua Udell]

Have you found my blog yet?

Yes. All your blog contains is ranting and raving - and I can only take so much. Frankly, it gives me a headache. You're a religious fanatic.

I guess what intrigues me (your blog certainly doesn't) is your age and where your profile says you're in "education." You're an awfully young man to be so far gone into religion. It's kind of scary, because these things tend to progress without treatment (like mental illness.) And as for the "education": what is it that your do, exactly? Are you a preacher-man? Because all you seem to do is preach, preach, preach, lecture, lecture, lecture, unendingly. Sorry, but that won't change any freethinkers mind.

You're in the land of reason now. Beware . . .

You're a lot nicer than many Christians are... I have been far gone before, but that was with other things.

But I teach, preach, and watch my son

[Savonarola]

Thanks for posting your letter, Joshua.

Imagine with me for a moment.

There is no manger, there is no cross and there is no resurrection.

Hmm... Sounds kinda familiar. Turns out, it is easy if you try.

You never hear [atheists] complain about Islam or their beliefs in Jesus.

Simply not true. Many of us "complain" about all irrational and unsubstantiated beliefs. This includes all beliefs about Jesus being a divine prophet; the only difference is that Muslims don't believe that he was the last one.

Simply put, an atheist wouldn't have a problem accepting Jesus as a good moral teacher, but their big itch is him being the Son of God.

Some skeptics doubt that Jesus existed at all. Others think that Jesus actually existed, and still others think that he existed and had some good things to say.
But, yes, atheists don't believe that Jesus was the son of God because they don't believe in God, much in the same way that we don't believe that Athena was the daughter of Zeus because we don't believe in Zeus.

... and the atheist would have to learn a whole new belief system.

See, that's the thing. Show me compelling evidence that Jesus was the son of God (which, of course, requires compelling evidence that there's a God at all), and I don't have to "learn" something as if it's a huge undertaking. I go where the evidence and reason direct me. It's the most flexible system ever, which is why it's the strongest system ever.

... they will all realize the whole truth about who Jesus is both Lion and Lamb of God.

Just as you will realize the truth of Athena being borne of both Metis and Zeus, no doubt.

I shan't presume that you fully understand this parody, so I'll help you out:
Udells will all realize the whole truth about SAV as both FFForums Mod@Large and all-powerful overlord of the universe!
... Sounds pretty ridiculous when it's not your belief, doesn't it? This is why talk is cheap. Evidence, please.

[Dardedar]

DAR
Hello Joshua, and welcome. I am glad to see you posting and interacting. I was afraid that your first post was just a spam ad for your blog (we are constantly deleting a lot of spam).

D.

[SherryH]

Hello, y'all.

There is a response to my letter in today's News-Leader from a Pastor Phil Snider, Springfield, entitled "Christians should not exclude others, but show compassion." It's a very nice, supportive letter "affirming" my article. It is not yet showing up on the News-Leader's website, but I will post it when it does. To summarize, Pastor Snider is apparently of a more liberal, open-minded bent than so many of his compadres in our area, and says "Because I come from a more moderate Christian tradition, I'm sometimes told by the more fundamentalist crowd around town that I'm either not an authentic Christian or in danger of the fires of hell." Amazing: the fundamentalists here can't even be open to another Christian because he's not enough like them!

I am proud that even when we freethinkers have disagreements, we are usually civil and still welcome each other.

[Doug]

You never hear them complain about Islam or their beliefs in Jesus.

Muslims are only a miniscule part of the U.S. population and have little political power. If they were to impose their beliefs as the fundamentalists do, influencing U.S. policy, our schools, our courts, etc., you can bet we would complain. Why are fundamentalists so blind to this? We don't complain about Islam because it is not influential. How hard is that to understand?

Simply put, an atheist wouldn't have a problem accepting Jesus as a good moral teacher...

False. Here are the teachings of Jesus that promote good, family values:

[This space intentionally left blank.]

(Don't get me started on the anti-family stuff in the New Testament...)

...but their big itch is him being the Son of God.

Muslims, too, do not accept Jesus as the son of God. They consider it heretical to say that God had a son, including Jesus. But son of God or not (not!), the big itch is the lack of evidence for the historical Jesus, the lack of evidence that the sayings in the NT are authentic, and the lack of evidence that Jesus had good advice.

Udell, if you have a savings account, you are disregarding the advice of Jesus. Do you think that I, as a husband and father (4 kids) should not save for tomorrow? Is that good advice?

Matthew 6 (NIV):
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Luke 12:
22Then Jesus said to his disciples: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23Life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? 26Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?
27"Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! 29And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.
32"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

The birds and flowers don't work, so I shouldn't work? God will provide everything I need even if I don't work? Should I sell everything I have and give the money to the poor? Should we all do that? Have you done that? Is this good family-oriented advice?

[SherryH]

I am proud that even when we freethinkers have disagreements, we are usually civil and still welcome each other.

Crapola!!! I conveniently forgot about that "babykiller" tiff I had with Hogeye here on the forum a long time ago.

Oh, that's right: Hogeye is an anarchist, not a freethinker . . .

[RobertMadewell]

You never hear them complain about Islam ...

You're not listening! I complain all the time about the misogyny in religion (christianity and islam both). True, I do concentrate on christianity. That's because that is what I'm exposed to and that is the religion I know about. I've met only a handful of muslims in Arkansas and Missouri. However, almost everyone I meet in these two states are christian. I suppose if I lived in an islamic country, I'd concentrate on islam more than christianity. That is until I get my head cut off.

...the atheist would have to learn a whole new belief system.

Wrong! Guess what my belief system was up to about 5 years ago. I was a church going christian. I am the son of an evangelical minister (link) and I was a good little christian boy. Your belief system is not new at all to me. When I "became" an atheist I didn't adopt a new belief system. I abandoned all belief systems.

[Joshua Udell]

DAR
The Udell post is most likely some kind of spam and run job posted to get traffic for his (insane) blog (notice how generic the comment is). But here is the link to the excellent Bible quiz.

D.

36 out of 50

[Joshua Udell]

I don't have time to answer all the questions, evidence and such, but if you use the Bible to say such and such for a point to why you might be an atheist, then I will say this.

Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

satan tempted Jesus after His baptism saying, "if you are the son of God." See Matthew 4:3

demons shouted you are the son of God! Luke 4:41, Luke 8:28

Jesus agrees with the question asked Luke 22:70 They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

[Joshua Udell]

Drought reveals archaeological treasures in Iraq

March 20, 2009 · Iraq is suffering one of the worst droughts in decades. While this is bad news for farmers, it is good news for archaeologists in the country.

The receding waters of the Euphrates River have revealed ancient archaeological sites, some of which were unknown until now.

For Ratib Ali al-Kubaisi, the director of Anbar province's Antiquities Department, the drought has opened up a whole new land of opportunity.

He explains that civilization began in Anbar, next to the Euphrates River.

"Everyone … thought that Anbar was only desert with no historical importance. But we discovered that this area is one of the most important archaeological areas in all of Iraq. This part of Iraq was the first to be settled," he says.

Flooding Covers Sites

In the mid-1980s, Saddam Hussein's government dammed the Euphrates in the area, flooding a 120-mile-long stretch of land near Iraq's border with Syria.

What once was an enormous reservoir that stretched as far as the eye could see has shrunk an astonishing 90 percent since summer, officials say.

Ratib says that at least 75 archeological sites had been partially excavated before the area was flooded. They ran the gamut of civilizations — from 3,000 B.C. to the Sumerian and Roman periods. Ancient Jewish settlements were also submerged in the area. But because of the receding waters, Ratib has been able to access some sites for the first time — including, for instance, a cliff with a series of pre-Christian tombs carved into its face. Though they have been heavily damaged by the water, Ratib says they still have value.

"I wish we could excavate these sites again. If we had the money and the resources, we could complete the work we began all those years ago," he says.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =102184336

[JamesH]

DAR
The Udell post is most likely some kind of spam and run job posted to get traffic for his (insane) blog (notice how generic the comment is). But here is the link to the excellent Bible quiz.

D.

36 out of 50

And you still believe the Bible is without era? You still want to use this book as your guide book through life? I have heard the Bible refered to as the "guide book of life" or it could actually be called an O&M (Operations and Maintenance Manual) in modern language. If a car company put out an O&M for a car that used the Bible as their quality standard for writting the O&M they would go out of business. You would not know if you should change the oil evey 300 miles or every 300,000 miles.

[Dardedar]

[Bible Quiz score] 36 out of 50

DAR
It's been a long time but I think I got 48/50.

JOSH
I don't have time to answer all the questions, evidence and such, but if you use the Bible to say such and such for a point to why you might be an atheist, then I will say this.
Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

DAR
This is why, of all the questions you might have the time to address, the best one to start with is: Why should someone believe the Bible? How can we know the claims in the Bible you refer to are accurate? Appealing to verses in the Bible before answering that one is not going to be very persuasive is it?

I've written a book about the inaccuracies and contradictions in the Bible. You can read a pretty good sample of it here.

JOSH
satan tempted Jesus after His baptism saying, "if you are the son of God." See Matthew 4:3

DAR
Consider the absurdity of this claim Joshua. A fellow named Robert Ingersoll once responded to this in this manner:

"The Christians now claim that Jesus was God. If he was God, of course the devil knew that fact, and yet, according to this account, the devil took the omnipotent God and place him upon a pinnacle of the temple, and endeavored to induce him to dash himself against the earth. Failing in that, he took the creator, owner, and governor of the universe up into an exceeding high mountain, and offered him this world—this grain of sand—if he, the God of all the worlds, would fall down and worship him, a poor devil, without even a title to one foot of dirt! Is it possible the devil was such an idiot? Should any great credit be given to this deity for not being caught with such chaff? Think of it! The devil—the prince of sharpers—the king of cunning—the master of finesse, trying to bribe God with a grain of sand that belonged to God!
Is there in all the religious literature of the world anything more grossly absurd than this?"
--Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899), The Gods pg. 27

D.

[SherryH]

I don't have time to answer all the questions, evidence and such, but if you use the Bible to say such and such for a point to why you might be an atheist, then I will say this.

Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

satan tempted Jesus after His baptism saying, "if you are the son of God." See Matthew 4:3

demons shouted you are the son of God! Luke 4:41, Luke 8:28

Jesus agrees with the question asked Luke 22:70 They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

That's it? That's all you "have time for" - to throw tired old scriptures at us? You "don't have time" to answer questions??? Oh, PLEASE. You don't have any answers and/or you're simply being lazy. I'm betting on the first part.

I told you, Mr. Udell, you're amongst people of reason here. I seriously doubt that anyone in this group is going to fall into some religous trance and go, "Oh, yeah . . . maybe I AM a believer" because you quoted scripture. We know that the bible is man-written, and we don't believe it is the inerrant "word of god." As far as I'm concerned, the Bible is the world's longest-running game of "Telephone" and that's about it.

If you're going to engage us on this forum, we require EVIDENCE, and you aren't producing any.

Also, what was the point of posting that article about the artifacts of ancient Iraq?

[Doug]

I don't have time to answer all the questions, evidence and such...

DOUG
We're used to that. We produce evidence, the religious produce tracks out of here.

but if you use the Bible to say such and such for a point to why you might be an atheist, then I will say this.

Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." {etc.}

DOUG
Udell, try to THINK about why I was citing the Bible. At least try. Give it a shot. I was not saying that I am an atheist because of the Bible. I was not citing verses that gave me a problem. If you are not going to give a moment's thought to what people say, or to what you say, then you have no business telling others what to think.

I cited the Bible to show YOU that there are verses in the Bible that conflict with what YOU and others would typically think of as having to do with being a good moral teacher. YOU don't think that people should not save or plan for tomorrow. I am showing you that YOUR source of alleged inspiration is not an adequate source for YOU given YOUR criteria that YOU use to guide YOUR life. I am showing you that even someone such as yourself who is a believer should not regard Jesus as a good moral teacher in many respects because YOU do not agree with the advice he gives. YOU and the rest of 21st century Christians think it is bad advice.

I don't believe the majority of information in the Bible. Some of it is true (eg., there is a city called Jerusalem, there was a Pontius Pilate, etc.), but a lot of it is not. But YOU say that YOU believe the Bible, yet YOU do not believe a lot of what it says, even when Jesus says it, as in the verses about not planning for the future. And many skeptics such as myself agree that it is bad advice. So your claim is false that the big sticking point about whether to follow Jesus is that he is (allegedly) the son of God. No, that is just the beginning. Another sticking point is that he gave advice that would be HORRIBLE advice for many people to follow. And you agree with me on that.

You also made some false claims about Islam and about what atheists believe, and I rebutted those. Spewing dogma in return is not a substantive response.

Too bad you can't understand any of this. But perhaps it can be of use to lurkers...

[ChristianLoeschel]

Muslims are only a miniscule part of the U.S. population and have little political power. If they were to impose their beliefs as the fundamentalists do, influencing U.S. policy, our schools, our courts, etc., you can bet we would complain. Why are fundamentalists so blind to this? We don't complain about Islam because it is not influential. How hard is that to understand?

Not entirely sure you're correct to diminish the political power of Muslims in the US. Take for example this case:

http://www.2ndcoa.courts.state.tx.us/op ... onID=14601

Basically, the second court of appeals in Texas upholds the jurisdiction of what would be a Sharia court in the divorce of two muslims. Granted, this jurisdiction is derived from both parties agreement to have the Texas Islamic Court arbitrate this case, but there are issues with that. First of all, it is quite concievable that one party (particularly the woman in such a patriarchal society) could be pressured into accepting this arbitration. Secondly, under the Texas General Arbitration Act, a party may revoke the agreement only on a ground that exists at law or in equity for the revocation of a contract, meaning that once you agree...youre stuck.

[Betsy]

I remember in Sunday School being taught that Jesus said "If you have two coats, and your neighbor has no coat, give your neighbor one of your coats." They showed us a picture of him saying that and everything!

Yet, the Rightwing (fundamental Christian) political party would now call that "socialism."

That's just off the top of my head, but I'm sure some of you could come up with a whole list of things Jesus taught that present day Christians openly and whole-heartedly reject.