Atheism is DEAD!

[Betsy]

graybear13 wrote:
It is really scary to think of young impressionable minds coming before you to be brain-washed and taught that religious faith is foolishness.



I think it's really scarier that children are being indoctrinated into believing a mythological, fantastical story from birth and brainwashed into just believing whatever they're told about it, without learning to think critically, do research, study science and philosophy without the baggage of a belief in a mystical being.

I understand people like GrayBear are extremely invested in their religious beliefs; and I know it is hard for anyone like that to look at the situation clearly because that would mean having to admit - even if just to themselves - that they have invested their entire lives in a fallacy. Notice that none of the freethinkers said "foolishness", but GrayBear did, because he would feel incredibly foolish if he had to admit he'd made a bad investment. And the easiest way for him and people like him to remain in denial is to just keep repeating that people who don't follow their religion (1) worship materialism, (2) have no morals, (3) will burn in hell for eternity. It's just .... stupid, really, but most tactics that people use to stay in any kind of denial usually are. *sigh*

[kwlyon]

Yeah...Grey, I think I am on Betsy's side on this one here....

Kevin

[kwlyon]

What an ego...I would like to buy you for what you are worth and sell you for what you think you are worth.

I would likely be a better investment. It's not that I'm worth more, but rather there would be a greater profit margin:P

[JamesH]

It is fitting that you are a prophet of atheist/materialism.

The ugliness of your worship of materialism, spiritual blindness,
is reflected in your soul.

I think it is very funny that you call an atheist materialistic. There are so many good Christians that really worship materialism. There is a religious thought called Posperity Christianity. The idea is that you will have all your heart desires if you are in good standing with God. Just take a look at Joel Osteen down in Texas who preaches that God wants you to be rich. And have a big car. And have a big house. Correct me if I am wrong but I do believe these are material things. And trust me Joel got his!

I have a theory that there are alot of Christian that put themselves into alot of debt because God wants them to have all of these big expensive material things. What better and self serving act than to have a large house and justify the need for a 5000 square foot home because "I am blessed and God wants me to have this." Which of your Christian friends would question your standing with God if you live in a 5000 square foot "McMansion".

If you should ever read the "Black Collar Crimes" section of Freethought Today you will always find a few good Christians that have been caught and convicted for imbezeling money to finance some grand life style-vacations-cars-homes-mistresses-whatever.

Take a look at the Catholic Church. I believe that Vatican City is one of the wealthiest city/states on planet Earth. Talk about a group that worships materialism. Have you ever seen what the pope wears? It is not off the rack cheap stuff. Watch any of the telavagilist on TV they all live grand life styles. Jim Baker comes to mind, who had his dog house airconditioned! Of course that was before he went to jail for fraud but you can find him in Branson, MO still trying to sell some real estate scheme with a Christian "spin". The kids of Oarl Roberts just about bankrupted his college financing their "living life large" style to the tune of $16 or $30 million! In any case it was alot of money.

One thing that I have found very satisfying about being an atheist is that I don't feel a need for material things. I think that before I shook off the shackles of religion I may have been caught up in that same materialism that so many Christian get caught in. "I am a decent guy why won't God find me a good job?" "Why can't I live in a nicer house?" "What am I doing wrong that God won't help me?' When I gave up waiting for God to provide things for me, I found I am much more satisfied with the things I have because I have earned them. I can go look in the mirror and see who is responsible for the house I live in, the car I drive, and all the other things that I have. It is nice to live without the pressure of proving to the world that I am a good Christian because "God wants me to have a ........whatever."

As an atheist you only have to deal with the "here and now" and make decisions with facts and reason. Much better than being a Christian.

[tmiller51]

The Atlantic magazine just had an article about Posperity Christianity:

America’s mainstream religious denominations used to teach the faithful that they would be rewarded in the afterlife. But over the past generation, a different strain of Christian faith has proliferated—one that promises to make believers rich in the here and now. Known as the prosperity gospel, and claiming tens of millions of adherents, it fosters risk-taking and intense material optimism. It pumped air into the housing bubble. And one year into the worst downturn since the Depression, it’s still going strong.

Link

Tim

[graybear13]

The Atlantic magazine just had an article about Posperity Christianity:

America’s mainstream religious denominations used to teach the faithful that they would be rewarded in the afterlife. But over the past generation, a different strain of Christian faith has proliferated—one that promises to make believers rich in the here and now. Known as the prosperity gospel, and claiming tens of millions of adherents, it fosters risk-taking and intense material optimism. It pumped air into the housing bubble. And one year into the worst downturn since the Depression, it’s still going strong.

Link

Tim

Thank you Tim.

The pastor, Fernando Garay reminds me of Reverend Ike from several years back..."The lack of money is the root of all evil."

My concept of Heaven doesn't include money. That's why you can't take it with you. I believe it can manifest itself in the here and now.

JamesH...You are right to reject money and status, as God, for a simpler life. More childlike. But when it all boils down and that extreme materialism falls away you're still left with just materialism. Without some connection to God and the brotherhood that's all it will ever be.

Please don't think of me as a church going, public praying, bible thumping, money grubbing, gory glory seeking, conservative christian.

I think there is a huge difference between the so called "christian church" and the teaching of Jesus about a loving brotherhood of man with God as a loving father...the Golden Rule and all that jazz.

Betsy, I just want to say, I don't think children need religion. Adults need religion so they can return to that beautiful freedom of the mind.

God is not a fallacy (false: contrary to fact or truth)...I think I have a better argument for the existence or truth of God than you have against but that's just where we are. We can agree to disagree because I'm sure you cannot prove that God does not exist. God is not contrary to any fact....or I'm a fool

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

"And if you would know God be not
therefore a solver of riddles.

Rather look about you and you shall see
Him playing with your children" Gibran, The Profit

[Savonarola]

Adults need religion so they can return to that beautiful freedom of the mind.

Adults need an inflexible system of beliefs so that they have more freedom of beliefs? You're nuts.

I think I have a better argument for the existence or truth of God than you have against but that's just where we are. We can agree to disagree because I'm sure you cannot prove that God does not exist.

Nonsense. You agree to disagree. I still challenge your characterization of the burden of proof. That burden lies with you, not with the atheist.

[Dardedar]

That burden lies with you, not with the atheist.

DAR
Put another way:

"An atheist doesn't have to be someone who thinks he has a proof that there can't be a god. He only has to be someone who believes that the evidence on the God question is at a similar level to the evidence on the werewolf question." [John McCarthy]

GRAY
"The ugliness of your worship of materialism"

DAR
I wonder if Graybear can even see the absurdity and non sequiter of saying that the belief that the material world is all there is... somehow equates to "worship of materialism."

D.

[graybear13]

DAR
I wonder if Graybear can even see the absurdity and non sequiter of saying that the belief that the material world is all there is... somehow equates to "worship of materialism."

D.

I have been using the number one definition
of materialism in my dictionary. 1.The philosophical
theory that physical matter in it's movements and modification
is the only reality and that everything in the universe,
including thought, feeling, mind and will, can be
explained in terms of physical laws. It's number two
on Dictionary.com.
I gave you the definition of "worship". It was number two
in my book. I should have given you the definition of
materialism that I was using.

Sorry for the confusion....

[Dardedar]

Apparently not.

[JamesH]

JamesH...You are right to reject money and status, as God, for a simpler life. More childlike. But when it all boils down and that extreme materialism falls away you're still left with just materialism. Without some connection to God and the brotherhood that's all it will ever be.

Well Graybear if you were trying to insult me you did a very good job. I believe a strong arguement could be made that any one that believes in some ghost in the sky that is directing all events on Earth, is responsible for the existance of the Cosmos and if you just believe and pray enough good things will come your way is "more childlike".

I do not believe that anyone would ever say that my "simpler life" is "childlike". I think I would define a child as a person with limited responsibilities. As the child grows older they take on more responsibilited until such time they are completely responsible for their own well being, what I would call an adult. This is the point I am at in my life now and have been for many years. I am 100% responsible for my sucesses, failures and everything in between. I do not believe that Christians or any other religious person ever achieves this because there is always some "god" or "greater power" to credit or blame for their sucess or failure. Here are a few quotes:

"God did not want me to go to college that is why I never got an education and work for minimum wage."
"God is testing your faith that is why your 4 year old son is dead." (Heard that quote at a funeral)
"God has a plan for me."
"The devil made me do it."

Do you not see this lack of responsibility that Christians and other religious people have over their own lives? I would have to say that religious people never achieve full adulthood.

My conclusion is that it is you that is more "childlike" not me.

[Betsy]

...think any of you will ever get through to him?

did i miss what his "better argument for the existence of God" was? because I don't recall ever actually hearing that argument....other than something about a warm, fuzzy feeling you get when you just beliiiIIEEVeee (sorry, broke into song there).....was there actually any real argument or evidence backing up his claim?

oh, and JamesH, well said.

[graybear13]

I don't think you like the fact that I reject your authority
and your dogma. (dogma 2. A principal, belief, or statement
of idea or opinion, esp. one authoritatively considered
to be absolute truth.

I rejected your authority over in the science forum and
look what it got me...I was told that it would better
if I stopped thinking...now over here in the religion
forum I reject your authority and your dogma and once
again I am chastised.

Somehow you can't grasp the concept of a christian
that rejects the authority/dogma of the christian church,
and authority in general when it comes to spiritual issues.

I myself have no authority. I'm just over here expressing
my rational free thoughts.

I think it is ironic that I get called every name in the book
by people who claim to be freethinkers.

Authority is the problem with me. If we could only get
rid of all human spiritual authority or judgement and just
let it be a personal thing...that would be the beginning
of world peace (imho).

Take it all with a grain of salt and
find the truth inside yourself.

[Betsy]

I just went back through the last several posts and I don't see where anyone called Graybear a name, much less 'every name in the book.' We're just trying to get you to provide a lucid argument to back up your claims, and instead you become defensive.

[Dardedar]

I rejected your authority over in the science forum and
look what it got me...I was told that it would better
if I stopped thinking...

DAR
I think the suggestion was you should learn some science background/basics before you pretend to turn be able to turn a couple of centuries of science understanding upside down.

GRAY
now over here in the religion
forum I reject your authority

DAR
We have people with authority in the area of religion? It's just calling a spade a spade. Or pointing out when there is no good evidence for a spade.

and your dogma and once again I am chastised.

DAR
You get chastised because you make it up as you go.

Somehow you can't grasp the concept of a christian
that rejects the authority/dogma of the christian church,
and authority in general when it comes to spiritual issues.

DAR
Can't grasp? Good grief, such an attitude is prevalent throughout Christianity. How many American Catholics give a shit about what the pope say about birth control? Precious few. And last I checked the got abortions at about the same rate as protestants. Etc.

D.

[Doug]

I don't think you like the fact that I reject your authority
and your dogma. (dogma 2. A principal, belief, or statement
of idea or opinion, esp. one authoritatively considered
to be absolute truth.

DOUG
For the freethinkers you've been talking to, there is no "dogma" other than the honest search for truth. The only authority is the possession of the facts and the recognition of the truth.

I rejected your authority over in the science forum and
look what it got me...I was told that it would better
if I stopped thinking...now over here in the religion
forum I reject your authority and your dogma and once
again I am chastised.

DOUG
You are chastised because you do not have the possession of relevant facts and yet you want to challenge those who do. You are being schooled. You should be thankful, not bitter. It is not enough to buck the system. Only buck it when it is wrong. To oppose the truth simply because it is the status quo is not a respectable cause.

As one fellow said, "Every stink that fights the ventilator thinks it's Don Quixote."

Somehow you can't grasp the concept of a christian
that rejects the authority/dogma of the christian church,
and authority in general when it comes to spiritual issues.

DOUG
As Darrel said, this is prevalent in Christianity. There are almost as many versions of Christianity as there are Christians.

I myself have no authority.

DOUG
OK.

I'm just over here expressing my rational free thoughts.

DOUG
Good. Express the ones that are based on good evidence.

[Savonarola]

I don't think you like the fact that I reject your authority and your dogma.

I have no authority over you, and I have no dogma. Simply put, your "self-evident" assertion is a non-sequitur, and I reject it for that reason. You have been entirely unable to defend that assertion, thus I still see no reason to accept it as true.

I rejected your authority over in the science forum and look what it got me...

... more educated about scientific principles? Yeah, neat, huh?

Somehow you can't grasp the concept of a christian that rejects the authority/dogma of the christian church, and authority in general when it comes to spiritual issues.

I certainly can. As has been pointed out, this is incredibly common with Christians.

I'm just over here expressing my rational free thoughts.

Not really. You're expressing your free thoughts. They're mostly not rational. That's what I'm arguing.

If we could only get rid of all human spiritual authority or judgement and just let it be a personal thing...that would be the beginning of world peace (imho).

I too would love to eliminate this sense of "spiritual authority" fully concocted by humans who have no rationale for their arguments. The world would be a better place without the atrocities that "spiritual authority" brings.

I'm just over here expressing my rational free thoughts.

Good. Express the ones that are based on good evidence.

I disagree. graybear, you're free to express even the idiotic thoughts. But then we get to call you idiotic. Accept the ones based on good evidence.

[Dardedar]

DOUG
As one fellow said, "Every stink that fights the ventilator thinks it's Don Quixote."

DAR
As another fellow said:

"Religions are like farts. Yours is good, but everyone else's stinks."

[Doug]

"Religions are like farts. Yours is good, but everyone else's stinks."

Every church is a "Dutch oven"..?

[graybear13]

DOUG writes:
Atheism is not ugly.

I have had all of your hate and ugliness I can stand without throwing some of it back in your faces.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

God is the source of all love and beauty from where I'm standing. I don't believe that my consciousness and self awareness is materialistic in nature (materialism 1. The philosophical theory that physical matter in its movements and modifications is the only reality and that everything in the universe, including thought, feeling, mind, and will can be explained in terms of physical laws.) and I don't need your permission to state as a matter of truth that God does exist. So anti-God = anti-love and beauty, in my view. That my friend is uglyness personified.

Go ahead and rend me if you think you can and you want to try...I eat pigs for breakfast.

I think you should rename your little clique the Fayetteville "Anti-God, christian haters and materialists" and stop being cowards using freethinking as a way to justify and hide your hatred of religion and God. Or get rid of the religion forum and stick to science and politics. In this forum you are out of your element.

The universal Father is not invisible because he is hiding himself away from the lowly creatures of materialistic handicaps and limited spiritual endowments. The situation rather is :" You cannot see my face, for no mortal man can see me and live." No material man could behold the spirit of God and preserve his mortal existence. The glory and the spiritual brilliance of the devine personality presence is impossible of approach by the lower groups of spirit beings or by any order of material personalities. The spiritual luminosity of the Fathers personal presence is a light which no mortal man can approach; Which no material creature has seen or can see. But it is not necessary to see God with the eyes of the flesh in order to discern him by the faith-vision of the spiritualized mind.