Atheism is DEAD!

[graybear13]

DOUG
As one fellow said, "Every stink that fights the ventilator thinks it's Don Quixote."

DAR
As another fellow said:

"Religions are like farts. Yours is good, but everyone else's stinks."

Atheism is a turd in the pool!

[Savonarola]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Demonstrably false, or at least oversimplified. If beauty truly were entirely in the eye of the beholder, the research into understanding beauty would keep coming up empty. Instead, we have knowledge of the golden ratio and symmetry.

I don't need your permission to state as a matter of truth that God does exist.

No, you certainly don't need our permission. Clearly, you don't even need good evidence of it in order to state it, as you've just demonstrated. But that doesn't make it true.

So anti-God = anti-love and beauty, in my view. That my friend is uglyness personified.

But I'm a non-theist who believes that love and beauty exist. Thus, "in my view," your view is absurd.
Do you now see why all this talk of "in my view" this and "in my view that" doesn't actually accomplish anything without reason and evidence? Nah, you probably don't.

... and stop being cowards using freethinking as a way to justify and hide your hatred of religion and God.

Ancient PRATT. How could we hate something that we don't think exists? Can you look up "atheism" while you have your dictionary handy? Can you be the first person ever to justify this accusation?

The universal Father is not invisible...

Then you can show him to me, apparent to my own eyes? Go ahead.

... because he is hiding himself away from the lowly creatures of materialistic handicaps and limited spiritual endowments.

So God doesn't want us to find him because of who we are? So much for loving us unconditionally and wanting to save our souls.

[Doug]

... because he is hiding himself away from the lowly creatures of materialistic handicaps and limited spiritual endowments.

So God doesn't want us to find him because of who we are? So much for loving us unconditionally and wanting to save our souls.

And, apparently God does not want heaven populated by curious, conscientious, intelligent people. From what we've seen and heard from Graybear, God wants to stock heaven with gullible, stupid folk.

Hmm...

[Savonarola]

From what we've seen and heard from Graybear, God wants to stock heaven with gullible, stupid folk.

Then I'm awfully glad I'm not going there. It's bad enough here in the real world.

[Dardedar]

Poor Graybear. When you give him a poke all of his new age, home spun, pulled from his bum Xtianity oozes out. I knew it was in there somewhere.

Let's take a look. He shares a little Exodus 33 with us:

The situation rather is: " You cannot see my face, for no mortal man can see me and live."

DAR
That's the situation? Well, as I noted in my book, this claim is mentioned a few times in the Bible:

An the LORD said unto Moses... Thou canst not
see my face: for there shall no man see me, and
live. And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth
by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will
cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will
take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back
parts: but my face shall not be seen. Exod. 33:17, 20,
22-23

No man hath seen God at any time; the only
begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the father, he
hath declared him. John 1:18

Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor
seen his shape. John 5:37

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one
another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected
in us. 1 John 4:12

...the King of kings, and Lord of lords... whom no
man hath seen, nor can see... 1 Tim. 6:15-16

But Graybear didn't bother to mention the other verses in his very same Bible that flatly contradict this claim. Oops. Many have seen God, and lived:

Behold, thy servant Jacob is behind us. For he said,
I will appease him with the present that goeth before
me, and afterward I will see his face; peradventure
he will accept me... And Jacob called the name of the
place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and
my life is preserved. Gen. 32:20, 30

Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu,
and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the
God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were
a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the
body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the
nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand:
also they saw God, and did eat and drink. Exod.
24:9-11

And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as
a man speaketh unto his friend. Exod. 33:11

Then Job answered the LORD, and said... I have
heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine
eye seeth thee. Job 42:1, 5

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the
Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up...
Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone... for mine
eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Isaiah 6:1, 5

DAR
Maybe Graybear should adjust his theory a bit?

GRAY
and I don't need your permission to state as a matter of truth that God does exist.

DAR
But do realize that, while stating something "as a matter of truth" may make you feel better, the record shows that it doesn't make it even a tiny bit more likely to be "true." And that's what matters.

GRAY
So anti-God = anti-love and beauty, in my view.

DAR
It's a common mistake to think that the "a" in "atheism" has something to do with "anti." Not so. The "a" in atheism comes from the Greek meaning "not." That is quite literally, "not theist." That's all the word "atheist" gets you. Some atheists may appear to be anti-god for sure. But it's not required and they're usually just manifesting a dislike for some of the silliness and arrogance of "His" followers.

GRAYBEAR
...stop being cowards using freethinking as a way to justify and hide your hatred of religion and God.

DAR
I think religion does a lot of good, at times. Sometimes I think of joining the Episcopals, if they would have me (and they would). But a little too much with the rituals all the time. God? Well, he/she/it probably doesn't exist and no use pretending he/she/it does until some evidence stronger than "it's a matter of truth" or "it's self-evident" comes along.

In this forum you are out of your element.

DAR
Could you be projecting here? Really, I am hoping to see a category of knowledge that IS your element.

GRAYBEAR
The universal Father is not invisible because he is hiding himself away from the lowly creatures of materialistic handicaps and limited spiritual endowments.

DAR
"Father?" Does your God have a penis? I bet he does. He probably has an unlimited spiritual "endowment" to go along with all of his other omni-max (and usually self-contradictory) attributes.

GRAYBEAR
No material man could behold the spirit of God and preserve his mortal existence.

DAR
Debunked above. Maybe you should try reading your Bible a little more critically? Now that we have learned that this is not true, according to your same holy book that says otherwise, can we look forward to you learning something new and not repeating this again? That is unless you want to demonstrate to someone a really good example of a Bible contradiction. I hope so.

GRAYBEAR
The glory and the spiritual brilliance of the devine personality presence is impossible of approach by the lower groups of spirit beings...

DAR
I notice you consistently can't spell the word "divine." Would it be too much to ask that these higher divine creations know how to spell this word that so thoroughly defines their existence? I think that would be appropriate.

GRAYBEAR
...see God with the eyes of the flesh in order to discern him by the faith-vision of the spiritualized mind.

DAR
Oh boy. Is "faith-vision" in 3D? Do you have to wear special glasses? Anyway. Graybear, you are indeed a silly person and it's not nice to pick on you but we haven't had any true fundies by in a while so your mushy headed religion and physics 'by the seat of your pants' will do in the interim. Thanks for the entertainment and... keep them coming.

D.

[kwlyon]

"An the LORD said unto Moses... Thou canst not
see my face: for there shall no man see me, and
live."

That's because when you see the master of the universe for the incompetent slob he apparently is, suicide is the only option.

That was dark...was it not:)

[Dardedar]

Speaking of dark, did you notice that while you can't see God's face, you can see his holy bum:

"And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back
parts: but my face shall not be seen."
Exod. 33:17, 20, 22-23

No black hole jokes please!

When you take another cultures myth-stories, and literalize them, you get nonsense.

[Doug]

Speaking of dark, did you notice that while you can't see God's face, you can see his holy bum:

"And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back
parts: but my face shall not be seen."
Exod. 33:17, 20, 22-23

No black hole jokes please!

When you take another cultures myth-stories, and literalize them, you get nonsense.

DOUG
In that little scene God tells Moses to hide in a crevice, and God will send some of his glory ahead of himself, and Moses will be allowed to peek at God's "hinder parts."

The first glory-hole on record...

[graybear13]

Take it all with a grain of salt and
find the truth inside yourself.

When it comes to matters of the heart I am in my element. IMHO

The Old Testament certainly is not "my holy book". I find some truth in it but more in the New Testament. In the end they are both just books written and edited by men.

Obviously you all have brilliant well trained minds and I respect that but I am afraid all of your critical thinking has wounded your hearts and therefore crippling your souls.

On the other hand church going christians live inside their hearts and their minds have been wounded by the judgement and authority of the church and therefore their souls have been crippled also. I don't know what the solution might be but a pissing contest between crippled souls doesn't seem to make any sense.

I think that a man standing in the presense of God might be like a man standing in front of a gamma ray burst. I also think and believe that there are beings in this universe of universes that exist between these two extremes, somewhere between God and man. That is what Jesus tried to tell us with his life here.

"I soppose you could never prove to the mind
of the most ingenious mollusk that such a
creature as a whale exists." Emerson

[Dardedar]

I am afraid all of your critical thinking has wounded your hearts and therefore crippling your souls.

DAR
Beyond your mere assertion, you give no example or explanation showing why having good critical thinking skills might be (or is in our case) associated with having a "wounded heart" or "crippled soul."

Contrary to what the Old Testical and most country music songs assert, the heart is a pump, with no reasoning or thinking capabilities whatsoever. This is ancient superstition regurgitated in the Bible.

There is no evidence that in any way demonstrates the existence of a "soul."

I think you confuse your skill in "matters of the heart," with simply being quite good at making your beliefs line up with what you wish to believe. This comes quite natural to humans but for freethinkers, it is a human tendency we try to suppress and fight against because it quite easily, and typically, leads to false beliefs.

D.
---------------
"Free thought" means thinking freely--as freely, at least, as is possible for a human being. The person who is free in any respect is free from something; what is the free thinker free from? To be worthy of the name, he must be free of two things; the force of tradition, and the tyranny of his own passions. No one is completely free from either, but in the measure of a man’s emancipation he deserves to be called a free thinker.”
--Bertrand Russell, "The Value of Free Thought" Bertrand Russell on God and Religion (ed. Al Seckel, Buffalo: Prometheus, 1986), pp. 239-40.

[Savonarola]

Obviously you all have brilliant well trained minds and I respect that but I am afraid all of your critical thinking has wounded your hearts and therefore crippling your souls.

Isn't it strange how brilliant, well-trained minds' critical thinking is a bad thing?

I think that a man standing in the presense of God might be like a man standing in front of a gamma ray burst.

I think that there's only a little bit of similarity here. Pretending that one will eventually stand in the presence of God is just about as stupid as willingly standing in front of a strong gamma ray burst.

Oh, wait, I get it now: God causes cancer. That, or religion is a cancer...

[Dardedar]

Isn't it strange how brilliant, well-trained minds' critical thinking is a bad thing?

DAR
Of course it is. Because it slays that which Graybear so desperately wishes to be true.

D.
----------------
"...and if wishes were horses, beggars would ride." --Jeoppete

[kwlyon]

GRAYBEAR
The glory and the spiritual brilliance of the devine personality presence is impossible of approach by the lower groups of spirit beings...

DAR
I notice you consistently can't spell the word "divine." Would it be too much to ask that these higher divine creations know how to spell this word that so thoroughly defines their existence? I think that would be appropriate.

I do this as well:)...it is likely because it is the first suggestion on spell check. If your spelling is atrocious and you have auto correct on you end up using the wrong word spelled correctly quite often. And yes...the Episcopal church would certainly have you. They are like metho-catholics...not that they are on meth, but rather they have become quite methodist in their general liberalness. I love the catholic church BECAUSE of the ceremony....I just wish they would wake up and realize that criticizing the church is an act of a GOOD catholic, when you believe they are in the wrong...or when they say/do something incredibly stupid. And as for atheist catholics...I am relatively certain I know at least one atheist priest.

[Dardedar]

And as for atheist catholics...I am relatively certain I know at least one atheist priest.

DAR
Consider: Something someone from errancy posted years ago (a list I have been on for years that discusses Bible errancy)

I don't see why there can't be rabbi atheists. There are
Christian atheists. From the "News of the Weird" column:

"Just after a Church of England diocese fired the Rev. Anthony
Freeman of West Sussex in July because he had admitted in a
recent book that he does not believe in God, 65 of Freeman's
colleagues signed a letter protesting their superiors'
'intolerance.' "

I got curious about Mr. Freeman, so I did some more digging on
him. In the various news articles I found (which I won't post
but will be happy to send to anyone who is interested), I
discovered:

-there are at least 100 Church of England priests who do not
believe in a supernatural God.

-some of them are members of something called the "Sea of Faith"
network, which has 600 members including 30 active and 20 retired
Anglican priests and 30 nonconformist ministers. Their statement
of intent is "to explore and promote religious faith as a human
creation." This movement also includes some Catholics.

-Freeman wrote a book called "God in Us," in which he said that,
"there is nothing out there -- or if there is, we can have no
knowledge of it." He defines "God" as the sum of the finest
human values, such as love, justice, joy and peace. Prayer is not
about talking to an invisible supernatural being. "It is about
stillness and recollection, and aligning one's will and one's
actions with one's highest values." In a BBC interview, he said,
"A substantial number share my views." He added: "A lot of
priests would like to be able to say things that they're a bit
afraid of -- and what's happened to me is not going to encourage
them."

-200 people, including 22 current priests [I'm not sure where
that 65 in the New of the Wierd article came from], wrote to the
Archbishop of Canterbury to protest Freeman's firing. They
expressed "deep regret that for the first time this century, a
Church of England parish priest has been removed from his living
for publishing views unacceptable to his bishop." The letter
says that Freeman had the group's support "in his efforts to
preserve a liberal and tolerant spirit in the Church of England."
One signer, Rev. Graham Shaw, rector in Kent, southern England,
said his congregation had trebled in seven years to more than 300
although he had published his disbelief in an objective God.
--Eileen McCarthy

D.
--------------
"...when in the mass, the priest breathes over the people "Hoc est corpus meum". Latin for "This is my body". The wicked Reformers later shortened this to Hocus-pocus." --Joseph McCabe, The Holy Faith of Romanists

[graybear13]

I think that there's only a little bit of similarity here. Pretending that one will eventually stand in the presence of God is just about as stupid as willingly standing in front of a strong gamma ray burst.

Oh, wait, I get it now: God causes cancer. That, or religion is a cancer...

You still don't get it. You don't want to stand before God until you are ready because if you do then you will be toast, not cancerous , not slow motion death, but instant toast.

"Better that science be divoted to the
destruction of superstition rather than attempting
the overthrow of religious faith--human belief in
spiritual realities and devine values."

[graybear13]

Isn't it strange how brilliant, well-trained minds' critical thinking is a bad thing?

To much of a good thing can be bad.

[Savonarola]

You don't want to stand before God until you are ready...

No, I have neither want for nor fear of standing before God because there is no God.

"Better that science be divoted to the destruction of superstition rather than attempting the overthrow of religious faith--human belief in spiritual realities and devine values."

I'm proud not to have "divine values" of stoning unbelievers and taking virgin females as war booty.

To much of a good thing can be bad.

But you'll never have that problem, will you?

[Doug]

You still don't get it. You don't want to stand before God until you are ready because if you do then you will be toast, not cancerous , not slow motion death, but instant toast.

DOUG
Yes, that's the claim. Got anything to back it up besides mere assertion?

[Dardedar]

You don't want to stand before God until you are ready because if you do then you will be toast, not cancerous , not slow motion death, but instant toast.

DAR
If you think that's bad, try standing before a 9,000 foot fire breathing dragon before you're ready. Instant toast! Or a Klingon starship with all of it's phasers aimed at your head. Instant toast! Or if you're in the sea, a 300 million pound pissed off octopus with fricken lazer beams attached to it's arms. Instant toast! Or a boogie man with 29 heads, 895 horns, 666 pitch forks, 724 vibrating butt plugs and FIVE nuclear bombs. Instant toast!

Do you get the idea? I hope you get the idea.

D.

[Doug]

If you think that's bad, try standing before a 9,000 foot fire breathing dragon before you're ready. Instant toast! Or a Klingon starship with all of it's phasers aimed at your head. Instant toast! Or if you're in the sea, a 300 million pound pissed off octopus with fricken lazer beams attached to it's arms. Instant toast! Or a boogie man with 29 heads, 895 horns, 666 pitch forks, 724 vibrating butt plugs and FIVE nuclear bombs. Instant toast!
Do you get the idea? I hope you get the idea.

DOUG
Or, in the case of Jesus, try standing before some Romans with a couple of beams of wood and a few nails. Instant toast!