Jehovah's Witnesses and Bible Prophecy Fulfillment
Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:09 am
I have a relative that has been trying to indoctrinate me with JW material all of my life. Sometimes I give a gentle response, sometimes I ignore it and sometimes I roast. This is a roast. In this latest letter she professed to have an example of fulfilled Bible prophecy. Quite an insight into the wacky world of the JW's.
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October 18, 2006
I am glad you have finally gotten the gumption to step up and accept my challenge to provide an example of Bible prophecy. I think the method of trying to back up your religious supernatural claims by showing evidence of supernaturally fulfilled prophecies is a very good method and I wish you the best success. It is a much better method than saying one should accept claims just by faith as many Christians do.
Before I get started it would be good to ask, how do we know if a prophet is accurate or inspired? I think the Watchtower gives some good guidance on this, so lets refer to them:
The Watch Tower, May 15, 1930, pages 154-155:
“.... a true prophet is one who is faithfully proclaiming what _is written_ in the Bible . . . But it may be asked, How are we to know whether one is a true or a false prophet? There are at least three ways by which we can positively decide: (1) If he is a true prophet, his message will come to pass exactly as prophesied. If he is a false prophet, his prophecy will fail to come to pass.... The difference between a true and a false prophet is that the one is speaking the word of the Lord and the other is speaking his own dreams and guesses.... The true prophet of God _today_ will be telling forth what the Bible teaches, and those things that the Bible tells us are soon to come to pass. He will not be sounding forth man-made theories or guesses, either his own or those of others.... In the New Testament, and in our day, the word "prophet" has a thought similar to that of our word "teacher," in the sense of a public expounder. Hence when the term "false prophet" is used, we shall get the correct thought if we think of a false teacher.”
Now, do the Witnesses consider themselves a prophet?
“This "Prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses.” --Watchtower of April 1, 1972, pp. 197-200
I will quote your points verbatim so I can respond directly to them.
JAC
You are always “harping” about how none of the Bible’s prophecies are fulfilled. Well here’s one for you:
The book of Revelation was written about 98 A.D. and in 1920 the League of Nations came into being. Then in Sept. 1939 when WWII broke out the League [of nations] went down into the abyss (of inactivity).
DAR
Yes, institutions come and go. Happens all the time. This claim is very ordinary and mundane. The idea that the League of Nations is predicted in Revelation is an old millennialist idea that the JW’s borrowed and adapted from Baptists and other protestants. I have included separately an article I just discovered this evening which makes the case for this, with extensive footnotes. It is entitled: THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS AND THE UNITED NATIONS IN PROPHETIC SPECULATION. Here is a little bit of it:
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“It is very interesting to note that the Bible interpretations which the Watch Tower Society many years later began to attach to the League of Nations are practically identical to those published by Vine in 1919. It seems rather obvious that President Rutherford and some of his co-workers were well aware of the interpretations different millenarians tied to the League of Nations at an early stage. Vine and Hogg were both well known commentators on Bible prophecy. Besides, Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words is often quoted in the Watch Tower publications. Watch Tower leaders picked up his application of Revelation 17:11-13 early in the 1930s, without mentioning the source or sources of it. A later generation of Witnesses is now given the impression that the leaders of the Watch Tower Society, under the influence of God's holy spirit, originated these predictions and interpretations, and this in turn is used as evidence of their claim to be Jehovah's modern-day prophet!
Vine and Hogg were both associated with the "Open Brethren," a branch of the Plymouth Brethren (also known as the Darbyists). But the prophetic speculations attached to the League of Nations were very common among fundamentalist Christians in a number of denominations, for instance among the Baptists and Pentecostals.”
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JAC [League of Nations replaced by United Nations] And has been in existence now for about 61 years.
DAR
Right, and someday it will probably be replaced. During it’s existence, (like the League of Nations) it has produced an immense amount of good. I gave a lecture on this once. With a core yearly budget of about what the Pentagon spends every 32 hours, the UN feeds millions of people and has provided clean water to over one billion people. Their list of accomplishments is very, very long indeed. As one fellow put it:
“With every girl we help educate; with every landmine we remove; with every conflict we prevent or peace we keep; with every community we lift out of poverty and every human wrong we defeat with human rights, we are making progress together.” --United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan, March 1999
Think of them like a volunteer Fire station. Sometimes the nations come together to put out a fire and sometimes they don’t show up. Participation as a member is voluntary. There are profound successes (hundreds if not thousands) and some disappointing failures (Rwanda etc). The idea that an almighty god would be intimidated by such a group of nations is absurd. The idea that because they haven’t and will never obtain “world peace” that they are not a tremendous force for good, is false.
JAC: In Bible language it is known as the 8th King or the 8th world power. But it is just about to “go off into destruction” (Rev. 17:8 and Rev. 17:11)
DAR
Oh really? “Just about”? I think your “just about” are a little longer than everyone else’s. Even if this were true, it would hardly be surprising since human institutions come and go all the time. Nations find the UN very useful. If it goes away it will just be replaced by something else similar. Hopefully.
Lets be candid. Here, more specifically, is what your organization has been predicting:
"Yes, the nations will use the scarlet-colored wild beast, the United Nations, in destroying Babylon the Great.” --Revelation Climax (1988), chapter 28
Perhaps you are aware it wasn’t until 1930 that the JW’s even started predicting this. Before then they held that “the beast with the woman on its back was the pagan Roman empire, with the apostate Church of Rome “on its back.” But even that wasn’t original, they were plagiarizing that idea from other protestant religions even then, as I have shown above and is shown in the article I have included.
Isn’t it curious that an Almighty God, in his communications with mankind through his earthly organization, would need to be constantly revising and completely changing the interpretations of his Bible prophecies? Even more curious is that he first gives the interpretations of his prophecies to what you would call “false religion” (Babylon the Great) only to have the JW’s borrow the idea later. And then, it fails, EVERY time. What kind of “inspiration” does it take to be wrong all of the time?!
JAC
The UN has no effectiveness.
DAR
You are mistaken. I can give you hundreds of examples of UN effectiveness. Here is a very tiny sample:
The United Nations: A Snapshot of Accomplishments
Establishing Peace & Promoting Democracy
Ending Conflicts. The U.N. has negotiated 172 peaceful settlements, helping bring about an end to the Iran-Iraq war, the civil war in El Salvador, and withdrawal of Soviet troops from Afghanistan.
Peacekeeping. In El Salvador, Cambodia, Macedonia, Mozambique, Namibia, Cyprus and Haiti, to name a few, U.N. peace operations have helped uphold ceasefires, conduct free and fair elections, monitor troops withdrawals, deter violence, create free countries, and aid political stability.
Preventing Nuclear Proliferation. The International Atomic Energy Agency has helped minimize the spread of nuclear weapons by inspecting and monitoring nuclear reactors and facilities in 90 countries. The U.N. has also advanced arms control through international agreements such as the Chemical Weapons Convention and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
Eradicating Disease & Famine
Ending Smallpox & Polio. A 13-year effort by World Health Organization (WHO) succeeded in eradicating smallpox in 1980. WHO also helped wipe out polio from the Western Hemisphere.
Universal Immunizations. In 1974, only five percent of children in developing countries were immunized against polio, tetanus, measles, whooping cough, diphtheria and tuberculosis. By 1995, as a result of the efforts of United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) and the WHO, there was an 80% immunization rate, saving the lives of over 3,000,000 children each year.
Alleviating Chronic Hunger and Rural Poverty. The U.N. has provided famine relief to millions of people. The International Fund for Agricultural Development had developed a system of providing economic credit for poor and marginalized groups, benefiting over 230 million people in nearly 100 developing countries and building longer-term hunger relief.
Protecting People & Resources
Helping Refugees. In 1996, 27 million refugees, mostly women and children, receive food, shelter, medical aid, education and repatriation assistance from the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees.
Environment. Through international treaties, the U.N. leads efforts to protect the ozone layer and curb global warming. Forestry action plans help limit deforestation and promote sustainable forestry practices for 90 countries. The U.N. has helped provide safe drinking water for 1.3 billion people in rural areas, and has on-going efforts to help prevent over-fishing and clean up pollution.
Improving Female Literacy. U.N. programs to help promote education and advancement for women helped raise their literacy rate in developing countries from 36% in 1970 to 56% in 1990.
--http://tinyurl.com/u7ur
DAR
How dare you say the UN is ineffective?
In 1963 the JW’s got together and passed a resolution. A biggie. Part of it was this:
“In the year 1914 the combination of events began on earth that he said would be a visible sign to us that Jehovah God had taken his sovereign power in that year and had set up the kingdom of his Son Jesus Christ for the government of this earth. According to the published information from the Holy Bible, the time then came for all the political nations to yield their sovereignty in the earth peaceably over to the heavenly kingdom of God's enthroned Son Jesus Christ. World history shows that, instead, more than a score of nations, led by Christendom, engaged in a global war for world domination. Because of this course the nations entered into the "time of the end" foretold in the Holy Bible, which will reach a conclusion in their violent destruction;”
Let me get this straight. The “time came for all the political nations to yield their sovereignty in the earth peaceably over to the heavenly kingdom of God's enthroned Son Jesus Christ.” Just how were they supposed to do that? The JW’s predicted that Jesus would return in 1914 and bring on his glorious Armageddon. When that totally failed the JW’s claimed he returned invisibly. Jehovah, who never shows up for anything, expected the “political nations of the world” to what, yield their sovereignty to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society? Is that it? That’s why Jehovah got mad at the UN? To say this makes no sense is a compliment.
However, let me point out another big problem. IF as you say, the UN is not “effective,” this is a very big problem for you. Because the JW’s have been predicting for decades that the UN is going to attack and “destroy the world empire of false religion.” Boy, they would have to be pretty darn “effective” to pull something like that off wouldn’t you say? That would be the epitome of effectiveness! Of course, the claim was absurd when they first made it and it still is today. So which is it? The UN is so effective that it is going to “destroy the world empire of false religion” or is it as you say now “The UN has no effectiveness.”
JAC ------Where are the sanctions that were promised for Iran if they didn’t meet a certain deadline about their nuclear proliferation?
DAR
Who promised that? The US? The world cares less and less what the US thinks. Europe wasn’t backing it, especially Russia (former “king of the north”) and France. So it failed. The UN is a very bureaucratic, democratic, deliberative, slow moving organization. It isn’t totalitarian like the JW’s where a few men at the top say “take all of the windows out of Kingdom Halls” and BOOM it gets done.
JAC The choice of words used in the Bible seems to indicate that the UN will not meet a violent death, but will just simply fade away, much like the League did in Sept. 1939.
DAR
Ho hum, then why all of the fuss about it? The JW’s have wasted a swimming pool of ink babbling on for almost half a century about how the UN is going to “destroy the world empire of false religion” and then go on to attack the JW’s which will then bring on Armageddon… and now you are saying it may just simply fade away!? What a joke! What you are doing is just parroting what the JW’s are saying NOW. Have you forgotten what they said in the past? They are changing their story once again because the claim, is patently absurd and has failed like every single one of their prophecies.
Surely you have not forgotten that the JW’s have LONG prophesied that the United Nations is the prophetic “wild beast” of Rev. 13:17 that stands opposed to God’s Kingdom under the “anointed remnant,” empowered directly by Satan himself (Gog of Magog of Rev. 20:8). And that the UN has long been due to “sometime soon” be empowered by the United States and Great Britain, and to turn on “Jehovah’s people” to annihilate them. But now it seems, since it was discovered that the Watchtower Society was in fact, secretly a part of the UN during the 90’s, an NGO with specific requirements and duties, they have changed their tune and no longer call it “the beast”. Just like they don’t claim to know who the constantly changing “King of the North” is anymore. Simply amazing. Please read the article on the King’s of the North I have included.
Incidentally, I thought you were going to give an example of a fulfilled prophecy, not just give more postulations about what MAY happen in the future. There is a difference. Also, even if the UN did fade away or is completely discarded at sometime in the future, this is hardly a supernatural prediction. Human institutions come and go. Bears poop in the woods. Always have, always will.
JAC
At the big meeting of several of the World’s leaders 2 or 3 days ago, Hugo Chavez, pres. Of Venezuela said that the UN has a “fatal disease”!
DAR
I think you are mistaken. I just did a computer search of his speech and the word “fatal” did not occur. He did say: “The United Nations has exhausted its model, and it is not all about reform.” But people say a lot of things.
JAC And here’s another one for you:
DAR
Another one? I am almost at the end of your letter and you have yet to even attempt to give an example of a fulfilled supernatural Bible prophecy.
JAC
The Bible says that “Babylon the Great” and all of her daughter “harlots” will be destroyed!
DAR
That’s nice, the Bible says a lot of things. A lot of plainly false things. I can give a great many examples of clearly false Bible claims and prophecies and I can do it with examples so simple and easy to see that even a child can understand them (I have a chapter on failed Bible prophecy in my book). And my examples don’t appeal to nonsensical phrases in the book of revelation that are so muddled and confused that even “godly inspired” organizations like the JW’s have to constantly revise their understandings of the verses in question.
The Whore of Babylon, or “Babylon the Great”. She makes her appearance in Revelation chapter 17, in which she is described as:
"the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." (Rev. 17:1-2 KJV)
Now, who is this “Babylon the Great”? Nobody knows. Some groups think it is the Roman Catholic Church. This idea goes back to at least the 1600’s when it appeared in a 1599 edition of the Geneva Bible. So lets not pretend like this interpretation is inspired information given by Yahweh to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Far from it. Some Rastafarians think the Whore of Babylon is the Queen of the United Kingdom. Some fundamentalist followers of Islam think the United States is the Whore of Babylon. A number of fundamentalist protestant writers think the European Union, as the successor to the Roman Empire, is the Whore of Babylon. Dispensationalist study Bibles and commentaries such as the Scofield Reference Bible and Hal Lindsey’s ridiculous The Late Great Planet Earth like to say the Soviet Union, or earlier Russia, is the Whore of Babylon.
For all I know, they are all full of crap and the fellow who penned the insane babblings in the book of revelation was just having a big joke on us. Kind of like Nostradamus.
Modern scholars agree that the correct interpretation is the one the JW’s used (borrowed) before 1930. That is, that the “Babylon the Great” of revelation is Rome. There are many good reasons for believing this. The Wikipedia.org encyclopedia gives this:
Rome and the Roman Empire as the Whore of Babylon
Many Bible scholars agree that Babylon in the whore's title is meant as an allegory of Rome — perhaps specifically at the time to some aspect; of Rome's rule (brutality, greed, paganism), or even a servant people that does the bidding of Rome. The Roman Catholic commentary of the Jerusalem Bible, the evangelical Protestant commentary of the New International Version Study Bible, the Rastafarians and the liberal Protestant commentary of the Oxford Annotated Study Bible all concur that "Babylon is the symbolic name for Rome" and that (1st century) "Rome" is the "type of any place where evil is supreme." (Jerusalem Bible, commentary to Rev. 17)
Elsewhere in the New Testament, in 1 Peter 5:13, "Babylon" is possibly used to refer to Rome. This is bolstered by the remark in Rev. 17:9 that she sits on "seven mountains", which could be the proverbial seven hills of Rome. "Rome" would therefore be the 'new Babylon' and all of the symbolism characterizing Babylon as a wanton "whore", would be transferable to Rome, according to this view.
There are a number of smaller symbolic clues - that some see as suggesting a link between Rome and Babylon — the Roman Empire in its military occupation of Palestine, its repression of the Jewish nation and religion, its destruction of Jerusalem following Jewish revolts in 70 AD and 135 AD, and its persecution of Christians, would lend meaning to the imagery of the 'whore, drunk with the blood of martyrs,' as a wantonly violent and bloodthirsty entity.”
JAC
“the ax is already at the foot of that “tree”
DAR
That phrase in Matthew 3:10 was written about 1,900+ years ago. That axe has been rusting at the foot of the tree for a long time. Don’t you think it is getting rather rusty?
JAC Also! The END (violent destruction!) of all FALSE religion is very near.
DAR
Oh dear, how is the “ineffective UN” going to master that feat? Now there is a prophecy that I wish would come true. Perhaps you should print that on a poster board and strap it to your body and walk around town with it like the JW’s used to do almost 100 years ago. All of those folks are long gone and they wasted their time. They should have stayed home and played their pianos.
Here is a blast from the past. I was two when the JW’s wrote this 38 years ago:
Awake! October 8, 1968, p. 28-29
“Yes, the only way to survive the end of this wicked world and to gain life in God's new order is by doing God's will...The end of this wicked system is approaching rapidly. It is much later than most people realize. Hence, there is no time to lose in working for survival...Those who refuse to listen to God will not survive the end of this system. The Great Judge of all mankind now causes his wisdom to cry out and give warning...Do you want to be 'left over' in the earth when this wicked system is annihilated soon at Armageddon? (Daniel 2:44)... You have no time to lose in making friends with God, because time is rapidly running out for this wicked system of things. It is very close to plunging into the chasm of Armageddon. Therefore, take steps quickly to work for survival and for eternal life in God's new order."
They also wrote scary stuff like that a hundred years ago. And they were just as wrong then.
JAC
The Bible says that the “worst ones of the nations” will do it! (Ezek. 7:24) and that “their SANCTUARIES must be profaned”!
DAR
That’s nice. Is there a fulfilled Bible prophecy in here somewhere? I thought you were going to give me one of those?
JAC
Have you noticed the hot water the Pope has been in lately? It’s coming to a head soon!
DAR
Have you noticed the hot water the JW’s have been in? Is the Pope and Vatican City about to be destroyed by the UN? (snort) The Catholics only represent less than 1/3 of one branch of world religion anyway and a large percentage of the flock don’t give a flip about the Pope.
Summary and conclusion:
Your letter contains no alleged example of fulfilled Bible prophecy. The JW’s and you have made many prophecies but as far as I know have never gotten anything right.
I did learn several interesting things while researching this letter. I didn’t realize that many of the JW prophecies, all failures, were not even original! They stole them from their competitor “false religion” or put another way “Babylon the Great”. Isn’t that amazing?
If you do find what you think is an example of supernaturally fulfilled Bible prophecy, I would be pleased to examine it and see how it holds up.
***
***
October 18, 2006
I am glad you have finally gotten the gumption to step up and accept my challenge to provide an example of Bible prophecy. I think the method of trying to back up your religious supernatural claims by showing evidence of supernaturally fulfilled prophecies is a very good method and I wish you the best success. It is a much better method than saying one should accept claims just by faith as many Christians do.
Before I get started it would be good to ask, how do we know if a prophet is accurate or inspired? I think the Watchtower gives some good guidance on this, so lets refer to them:
The Watch Tower, May 15, 1930, pages 154-155:
“.... a true prophet is one who is faithfully proclaiming what _is written_ in the Bible . . . But it may be asked, How are we to know whether one is a true or a false prophet? There are at least three ways by which we can positively decide: (1) If he is a true prophet, his message will come to pass exactly as prophesied. If he is a false prophet, his prophecy will fail to come to pass.... The difference between a true and a false prophet is that the one is speaking the word of the Lord and the other is speaking his own dreams and guesses.... The true prophet of God _today_ will be telling forth what the Bible teaches, and those things that the Bible tells us are soon to come to pass. He will not be sounding forth man-made theories or guesses, either his own or those of others.... In the New Testament, and in our day, the word "prophet" has a thought similar to that of our word "teacher," in the sense of a public expounder. Hence when the term "false prophet" is used, we shall get the correct thought if we think of a false teacher.”
Now, do the Witnesses consider themselves a prophet?
“This "Prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses.” --Watchtower of April 1, 1972, pp. 197-200
I will quote your points verbatim so I can respond directly to them.
JAC
You are always “harping” about how none of the Bible’s prophecies are fulfilled. Well here’s one for you:
The book of Revelation was written about 98 A.D. and in 1920 the League of Nations came into being. Then in Sept. 1939 when WWII broke out the League [of nations] went down into the abyss (of inactivity).
DAR
Yes, institutions come and go. Happens all the time. This claim is very ordinary and mundane. The idea that the League of Nations is predicted in Revelation is an old millennialist idea that the JW’s borrowed and adapted from Baptists and other protestants. I have included separately an article I just discovered this evening which makes the case for this, with extensive footnotes. It is entitled: THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS AND THE UNITED NATIONS IN PROPHETIC SPECULATION. Here is a little bit of it:
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“It is very interesting to note that the Bible interpretations which the Watch Tower Society many years later began to attach to the League of Nations are practically identical to those published by Vine in 1919. It seems rather obvious that President Rutherford and some of his co-workers were well aware of the interpretations different millenarians tied to the League of Nations at an early stage. Vine and Hogg were both well known commentators on Bible prophecy. Besides, Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words is often quoted in the Watch Tower publications. Watch Tower leaders picked up his application of Revelation 17:11-13 early in the 1930s, without mentioning the source or sources of it. A later generation of Witnesses is now given the impression that the leaders of the Watch Tower Society, under the influence of God's holy spirit, originated these predictions and interpretations, and this in turn is used as evidence of their claim to be Jehovah's modern-day prophet!
Vine and Hogg were both associated with the "Open Brethren," a branch of the Plymouth Brethren (also known as the Darbyists). But the prophetic speculations attached to the League of Nations were very common among fundamentalist Christians in a number of denominations, for instance among the Baptists and Pentecostals.”
***
JAC [League of Nations replaced by United Nations] And has been in existence now for about 61 years.
DAR
Right, and someday it will probably be replaced. During it’s existence, (like the League of Nations) it has produced an immense amount of good. I gave a lecture on this once. With a core yearly budget of about what the Pentagon spends every 32 hours, the UN feeds millions of people and has provided clean water to over one billion people. Their list of accomplishments is very, very long indeed. As one fellow put it:
“With every girl we help educate; with every landmine we remove; with every conflict we prevent or peace we keep; with every community we lift out of poverty and every human wrong we defeat with human rights, we are making progress together.” --United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan, March 1999
Think of them like a volunteer Fire station. Sometimes the nations come together to put out a fire and sometimes they don’t show up. Participation as a member is voluntary. There are profound successes (hundreds if not thousands) and some disappointing failures (Rwanda etc). The idea that an almighty god would be intimidated by such a group of nations is absurd. The idea that because they haven’t and will never obtain “world peace” that they are not a tremendous force for good, is false.
JAC: In Bible language it is known as the 8th King or the 8th world power. But it is just about to “go off into destruction” (Rev. 17:8 and Rev. 17:11)
DAR
Oh really? “Just about”? I think your “just about
Lets be candid. Here, more specifically, is what your organization has been predicting:
"Yes, the nations will use the scarlet-colored wild beast, the United Nations, in destroying Babylon the Great.” --Revelation Climax (1988), chapter 28
Perhaps you are aware it wasn’t until 1930 that the JW’s even started predicting this. Before then they held that “the beast with the woman on its back was the pagan Roman empire, with the apostate Church of Rome “on its back.” But even that wasn’t original, they were plagiarizing that idea from other protestant religions even then, as I have shown above and is shown in the article I have included.
Isn’t it curious that an Almighty God, in his communications with mankind through his earthly organization, would need to be constantly revising and completely changing the interpretations of his Bible prophecies? Even more curious is that he first gives the interpretations of his prophecies to what you would call “false religion” (Babylon the Great) only to have the JW’s borrow the idea later. And then, it fails, EVERY time. What kind of “inspiration” does it take to be wrong all of the time?!
JAC
The UN has no effectiveness.
DAR
You are mistaken. I can give you hundreds of examples of UN effectiveness. Here is a very tiny sample:
The United Nations: A Snapshot of Accomplishments
Establishing Peace & Promoting Democracy
Ending Conflicts. The U.N. has negotiated 172 peaceful settlements, helping bring about an end to the Iran-Iraq war, the civil war in El Salvador, and withdrawal of Soviet troops from Afghanistan.
Peacekeeping. In El Salvador, Cambodia, Macedonia, Mozambique, Namibia, Cyprus and Haiti, to name a few, U.N. peace operations have helped uphold ceasefires, conduct free and fair elections, monitor troops withdrawals, deter violence, create free countries, and aid political stability.
Preventing Nuclear Proliferation. The International Atomic Energy Agency has helped minimize the spread of nuclear weapons by inspecting and monitoring nuclear reactors and facilities in 90 countries. The U.N. has also advanced arms control through international agreements such as the Chemical Weapons Convention and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
Eradicating Disease & Famine
Ending Smallpox & Polio. A 13-year effort by World Health Organization (WHO) succeeded in eradicating smallpox in 1980. WHO also helped wipe out polio from the Western Hemisphere.
Universal Immunizations. In 1974, only five percent of children in developing countries were immunized against polio, tetanus, measles, whooping cough, diphtheria and tuberculosis. By 1995, as a result of the efforts of United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) and the WHO, there was an 80% immunization rate, saving the lives of over 3,000,000 children each year.
Alleviating Chronic Hunger and Rural Poverty. The U.N. has provided famine relief to millions of people. The International Fund for Agricultural Development had developed a system of providing economic credit for poor and marginalized groups, benefiting over 230 million people in nearly 100 developing countries and building longer-term hunger relief.
Protecting People & Resources
Helping Refugees. In 1996, 27 million refugees, mostly women and children, receive food, shelter, medical aid, education and repatriation assistance from the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees.
Environment. Through international treaties, the U.N. leads efforts to protect the ozone layer and curb global warming. Forestry action plans help limit deforestation and promote sustainable forestry practices for 90 countries. The U.N. has helped provide safe drinking water for 1.3 billion people in rural areas, and has on-going efforts to help prevent over-fishing and clean up pollution.
Improving Female Literacy. U.N. programs to help promote education and advancement for women helped raise their literacy rate in developing countries from 36% in 1970 to 56% in 1990.
--http://tinyurl.com/u7ur
DAR
How dare you say the UN is ineffective?
In 1963 the JW’s got together and passed a resolution. A biggie. Part of it was this:
“In the year 1914 the combination of events began on earth that he said would be a visible sign to us that Jehovah God had taken his sovereign power in that year and had set up the kingdom of his Son Jesus Christ for the government of this earth. According to the published information from the Holy Bible, the time then came for all the political nations to yield their sovereignty in the earth peaceably over to the heavenly kingdom of God's enthroned Son Jesus Christ. World history shows that, instead, more than a score of nations, led by Christendom, engaged in a global war for world domination. Because of this course the nations entered into the "time of the end" foretold in the Holy Bible, which will reach a conclusion in their violent destruction;”
Let me get this straight. The “time came for all the political nations to yield their sovereignty in the earth peaceably over to the heavenly kingdom of God's enthroned Son Jesus Christ.” Just how were they supposed to do that? The JW’s predicted that Jesus would return in 1914 and bring on his glorious Armageddon. When that totally failed the JW’s claimed he returned invisibly. Jehovah, who never shows up for anything, expected the “political nations of the world” to what, yield their sovereignty to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society? Is that it? That’s why Jehovah got mad at the UN? To say this makes no sense is a compliment.
However, let me point out another big problem. IF as you say, the UN is not “effective,” this is a very big problem for you. Because the JW’s have been predicting for decades that the UN is going to attack and “destroy the world empire of false religion.” Boy, they would have to be pretty darn “effective” to pull something like that off wouldn’t you say? That would be the epitome of effectiveness! Of course, the claim was absurd when they first made it and it still is today. So which is it? The UN is so effective that it is going to “destroy the world empire of false religion” or is it as you say now “The UN has no effectiveness.”
JAC ------Where are the sanctions that were promised for Iran if they didn’t meet a certain deadline about their nuclear proliferation?
DAR
Who promised that? The US? The world cares less and less what the US thinks. Europe wasn’t backing it, especially Russia (former “king of the north”) and France. So it failed. The UN is a very bureaucratic, democratic, deliberative, slow moving organization. It isn’t totalitarian like the JW’s where a few men at the top say “take all of the windows out of Kingdom Halls” and BOOM it gets done.
JAC The choice of words used in the Bible seems to indicate that the UN will not meet a violent death, but will just simply fade away, much like the League did in Sept. 1939.
DAR
Ho hum, then why all of the fuss about it? The JW’s have wasted a swimming pool of ink babbling on for almost half a century about how the UN is going to “destroy the world empire of false religion” and then go on to attack the JW’s which will then bring on Armageddon… and now you are saying it may just simply fade away!? What a joke! What you are doing is just parroting what the JW’s are saying NOW. Have you forgotten what they said in the past? They are changing their story once again because the claim, is patently absurd and has failed like every single one of their prophecies.
Surely you have not forgotten that the JW’s have LONG prophesied that the United Nations is the prophetic “wild beast” of Rev. 13:17 that stands opposed to God’s Kingdom under the “anointed remnant,” empowered directly by Satan himself (Gog of Magog of Rev. 20:8). And that the UN has long been due to “sometime soon” be empowered by the United States and Great Britain, and to turn on “Jehovah’s people” to annihilate them. But now it seems, since it was discovered that the Watchtower Society was in fact, secretly a part of the UN during the 90’s, an NGO with specific requirements and duties, they have changed their tune and no longer call it “the beast”. Just like they don’t claim to know who the constantly changing “King of the North” is anymore. Simply amazing. Please read the article on the King’s of the North I have included.
Incidentally, I thought you were going to give an example of a fulfilled prophecy, not just give more postulations about what MAY happen in the future. There is a difference. Also, even if the UN did fade away or is completely discarded at sometime in the future, this is hardly a supernatural prediction. Human institutions come and go. Bears poop in the woods. Always have, always will.
JAC
At the big meeting of several of the World’s leaders 2 or 3 days ago, Hugo Chavez, pres. Of Venezuela said that the UN has a “fatal disease”!
DAR
I think you are mistaken. I just did a computer search of his speech and the word “fatal” did not occur. He did say: “The United Nations has exhausted its model, and it is not all about reform.” But people say a lot of things.
JAC And here’s another one for you:
DAR
Another one? I am almost at the end of your letter and you have yet to even attempt to give an example of a fulfilled supernatural Bible prophecy.
JAC
The Bible says that “Babylon the Great” and all of her daughter “harlots” will be destroyed!
DAR
That’s nice, the Bible says a lot of things. A lot of plainly false things. I can give a great many examples of clearly false Bible claims and prophecies and I can do it with examples so simple and easy to see that even a child can understand them (I have a chapter on failed Bible prophecy in my book). And my examples don’t appeal to nonsensical phrases in the book of revelation that are so muddled and confused that even “godly inspired” organizations like the JW’s have to constantly revise their understandings of the verses in question.
The Whore of Babylon, or “Babylon the Great”. She makes her appearance in Revelation chapter 17, in which she is described as:
"the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." (Rev. 17:1-2 KJV)
Now, who is this “Babylon the Great”? Nobody knows. Some groups think it is the Roman Catholic Church. This idea goes back to at least the 1600’s when it appeared in a 1599 edition of the Geneva Bible. So lets not pretend like this interpretation is inspired information given by Yahweh to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Far from it. Some Rastafarians think the Whore of Babylon is the Queen of the United Kingdom. Some fundamentalist followers of Islam think the United States is the Whore of Babylon. A number of fundamentalist protestant writers think the European Union, as the successor to the Roman Empire, is the Whore of Babylon. Dispensationalist study Bibles and commentaries such as the Scofield Reference Bible and Hal Lindsey’s ridiculous The Late Great Planet Earth like to say the Soviet Union, or earlier Russia, is the Whore of Babylon.
For all I know, they are all full of crap and the fellow who penned the insane babblings in the book of revelation was just having a big joke on us. Kind of like Nostradamus.
Modern scholars agree that the correct interpretation is the one the JW’s used (borrowed) before 1930. That is, that the “Babylon the Great” of revelation is Rome. There are many good reasons for believing this. The Wikipedia.org encyclopedia gives this:
Rome and the Roman Empire as the Whore of Babylon
Many Bible scholars agree that Babylon in the whore's title is meant as an allegory of Rome — perhaps specifically at the time to some aspect; of Rome's rule (brutality, greed, paganism), or even a servant people that does the bidding of Rome. The Roman Catholic commentary of the Jerusalem Bible, the evangelical Protestant commentary of the New International Version Study Bible, the Rastafarians and the liberal Protestant commentary of the Oxford Annotated Study Bible all concur that "Babylon is the symbolic name for Rome" and that (1st century) "Rome" is the "type of any place where evil is supreme." (Jerusalem Bible, commentary to Rev. 17)
Elsewhere in the New Testament, in 1 Peter 5:13, "Babylon" is possibly used to refer to Rome. This is bolstered by the remark in Rev. 17:9 that she sits on "seven mountains", which could be the proverbial seven hills of Rome. "Rome" would therefore be the 'new Babylon' and all of the symbolism characterizing Babylon as a wanton "whore", would be transferable to Rome, according to this view.
There are a number of smaller symbolic clues - that some see as suggesting a link between Rome and Babylon — the Roman Empire in its military occupation of Palestine, its repression of the Jewish nation and religion, its destruction of Jerusalem following Jewish revolts in 70 AD and 135 AD, and its persecution of Christians, would lend meaning to the imagery of the 'whore, drunk with the blood of martyrs,' as a wantonly violent and bloodthirsty entity.”
JAC
“the ax is already at the foot of that “tree”
DAR
That phrase in Matthew 3:10 was written about 1,900+ years ago. That axe has been rusting at the foot of the tree for a long time. Don’t you think it is getting rather rusty?
JAC Also! The END (violent destruction!) of all FALSE religion is very near.
DAR
Oh dear, how is the “ineffective UN” going to master that feat? Now there is a prophecy that I wish would come true. Perhaps you should print that on a poster board and strap it to your body and walk around town with it like the JW’s used to do almost 100 years ago. All of those folks are long gone and they wasted their time. They should have stayed home and played their pianos.
Here is a blast from the past. I was two when the JW’s wrote this 38 years ago:
Awake! October 8, 1968, p. 28-29
“Yes, the only way to survive the end of this wicked world and to gain life in God's new order is by doing God's will...The end of this wicked system is approaching rapidly. It is much later than most people realize. Hence, there is no time to lose in working for survival...Those who refuse to listen to God will not survive the end of this system. The Great Judge of all mankind now causes his wisdom to cry out and give warning...Do you want to be 'left over' in the earth when this wicked system is annihilated soon at Armageddon? (Daniel 2:44)... You have no time to lose in making friends with God, because time is rapidly running out for this wicked system of things. It is very close to plunging into the chasm of Armageddon. Therefore, take steps quickly to work for survival and for eternal life in God's new order."
They also wrote scary stuff like that a hundred years ago. And they were just as wrong then.
JAC
The Bible says that the “worst ones of the nations” will do it! (Ezek. 7:24) and that “their SANCTUARIES must be profaned”!
DAR
That’s nice. Is there a fulfilled Bible prophecy in here somewhere? I thought you were going to give me one of those?
JAC
Have you noticed the hot water the Pope has been in lately? It’s coming to a head soon!
DAR
Have you noticed the hot water the JW’s have been in? Is the Pope and Vatican City about to be destroyed by the UN? (snort) The Catholics only represent less than 1/3 of one branch of world religion anyway and a large percentage of the flock don’t give a flip about the Pope.
Summary and conclusion:
Your letter contains no alleged example of fulfilled Bible prophecy. The JW’s and you have made many prophecies but as far as I know have never gotten anything right.
I did learn several interesting things while researching this letter. I didn’t realize that many of the JW prophecies, all failures, were not even original! They stole them from their competitor “false religion” or put another way “Babylon the Great”. Isn’t that amazing?
If you do find what you think is an example of supernaturally fulfilled Bible prophecy, I would be pleased to examine it and see how it holds up.
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