Pastor Briney's website had a page of
"Questions to Ask Evolutionists," a list intended to make Briney's own
young-earth beliefs appear more plausible. The list includes the
questions on the origin of the universe, on the arising of the first
life, and on specifics of biological evolution. On the page were the
instructions,
"Try asking these
questions in class and then after each answer, ask for the evidence to
back up the answer. Insist on evidence not just explanation."
Following
a blistering critique of some of his points at a seminar in early
September 2005, Briney's website in its entirety mysteriously
disappeared, then was reposted a few days later, with this list
altered. Nevertheless, the Fayetteville Freethinkers feel that showing
this list and the answers to his so-called "difficult" questions will
serve as a valuable educational tool not only on the subject of
science, but also for recognizing bogus questions and assertions.
Pastor Pat Briney
Feel free to explore Briney's "Creation Insights" website here. We link to his website; do you think he'll link to ours?
We respond below to each question in Briney's five categories:
1. What specific evidence supports the claim of a natural origin of the universe?
See Big Bang theory, including expanding universe, red shift, and
especially -- my personal favorite -- cosmic microwave background
radiation.
2. Explain how something can come from nothing in contradiction to the first law of thermodynamics.
There are several objections to Briney's implied point. I'll brush upon a couple of them.
The first objection, which has hounded Briney since running into
Doug Krueger, has to do with Briney's (mis)understanding of the first law of
thermodynamics. This is explained more thoroughly in our rebuttal of
his "Evidence of the existence of God" arguments (coming soon!), but some applies
here. The first law of thermodynamics is a classical law that applies
only to closed systems in equilibrium. Briney has not only failed to
show that the universe is a closed system but also has not shown that
the universe at singularity was at or near equilibrium.
I'm no cosmologist, but my interpretation of the Big Bang
theory is NOT that something came from nothing. Time exists only in the
universe (i.e. space-time continuum), so time by definition
began existing when the rest of the universe did -- there was no
"before." In other words: at no time did nothing exist; therefore, this
view reconciles the accusation that "something came from nothing."
A more technical (and quite possibly more correct) approach
considers the fact that classical physics (and even General Relativity)
breaks down at very small scales. Science turns to quantum mechanics to
describe nanoscale events, which the singularity would certainly be.
However, we currently have only an incomplete understanding of QM (see EPR Paradox
for a standard example), and we simply cannot at this time explain what
might have been happening, especially before Planck time (10-43 seconds after singularity).
This reduces Briney's argument to a simple "God of the gaps" claim, which holds no water whatsoever.
3.
The universe is experiencing heat death as predicted by the second law
of thermodynamics. So how do evolutionists justify proposing that
energy always existed and had no beginning?
Again, the second law of thermodynamics also applies
only under certain conditions, and Briney has shown neither that the universe currently conforms to this conditions nor that the universe conformed to these conditions at the "beginning." Briney apparently doesn't realize, however, that the
actual question in the above passage has nothing to do with the
preceding statement concerning the second law of thermodynamics. The
question itself is actually a simple restatement of an alleged
"problem" stemming from the first law of thermodynamics (which deals
with conservation of energy) and is answered in our response to
Briney's second question on the origin of the universe.
Briney uses these statements in his "Evidence of the existence of
God" arguments in a slightly different way. We will soon have available
a page on which we critically examine and dismantle Briney's arguments
for the existence of God.
4.
What is the evidence that the universe increased in its order and
complexity after the big bang in contradiction to the second law of
thermodynamics.
Again, the second law of thermodynamics is a classical
law that -- regardless of any anti-evolutionist's attempt at rewording -- applies only to closed macroscopic systems near thermal equilibrium. Briney has still not shown that the universe is such a system. To support his point, Briney would need to show the mathematical calculations
proving that entropy has decreased. Entropy is a physically defined
property and is only generalized as "disorder"; simply claiming that
the universe is more "ordered" is not proof that entropy has decreased.
See also this page for a mathematical exposé of Briney's thermodynamic ignorance.
Origin of Life
1.
What specific evidence supports the claim of a natural origin of life?
(life from non-life in contradiction to the law of biogenesis) 2. What is the scientific justification to study abiogenesis in contradiction to the law of biogenesis? 3.
If life could spontaneously exist by chance, then why have scientists
not been able to create life in the laboratory with controlled
experiments? Likewise, if scientists cannot succeed in creating life in
the laboratory, then what evidence is there that life could create
itself by chance?
It should first be noted that none of my college
textbooks presents a "law of biogenesis." What Briney may be referring
to is the observation that cells only come from existing cells, which
is part of cell theory. However, this theory was originally formulated
in response to Pasteur's disproving the hypothesis of spontaneous
generation (that living organisms spring from decaying
organic matter), and was not intended to apply to actual abiogenesis.
If science had actually "established" that life cannot in any way come from non-life, why would scientists be looking for evidence of such?
But to answer the specific question(s): Work by Miller and Urey as
well as Oro and others have shown that producing biologically important
molecules from simpler, pre-biotic molecules is perfectly possible.
Just because nobody has invented life in a test tube means that it
cannot occur either in a test tube or in a primordial soup. Moreover,
there is very good evidence (mitochondrial and chloroplast DNA, RNA
World hypothesis) that early "life" was probably incredibly different
from our modern definition of "life." It is therefore unreasonable to
expect to produce a modern cell from pre-biotic molecules.
An important point: Absence of proof is not proof of absence. See also the following question and response.
4.
What evidence justifies the evolution proposal that life spontaneously
arose from non-living material in spite of the calculations showing
that such occurrence is astronomically improbable.
The reader will note that nowhere on his site does Briney actually show the calculations.
However, Freethinker sleuthing has revealed that the "probabilities" Briney presents are ridiculous for the following reasons:
First, the alleged calculations use a model of completely random assembly of modern polypeptides and genetic material. This is known
to be inaccurate, as evolution has been demonstrated a gradualistic
process that builds, modifies, and largely improves the reaction rates
and stabilities of enzymatic and structural polypeptides. Second, the
calculations fail to take into account the undisputed evidence of early
biological simplicity, namely smaller forms of homeostatic reproducing
entities and a reliance upon RNA without DNA or polypeptides.
Upon being questioned about the RNA World hypothesis and
mitochondrial DNA, Briney acknowledged his familiarity with them but
refused to comment further. By presenting these probabilities even
though he knows of their invalidity, Briney has made the conscious
choice to deceive the public with these bogus values.
A component of these alleged calculations must involve, as
Briney repeatedly calls it, "natural properties of molecules." He may
not be a chemist, but even as a biologist he knows perfectly well that
"natural properties of molecules" depend greatly upon the surroundings.
However, we have absolutely no way of knowing what the conditions of
the pre-biotic molecules may have been, let alone their surroundings.
So even ignoring the above objections, there is simply no mathematical
way to take the "natural properties of molecules" into account when
performing these calculations.
5.
By what means did the code of life and the enzymes necessary to make
the code originate? Which came first: the code to make the enzymes or
the enzymes to make the code?
Once again, Briney commits a fallacy by posing a false
dichotomy. More importantly, he does so knowingly! As explained above,
Briney is familiar with the RNA World hypothesis, which states that
most if not all of early biological "machinery" was composed largely of
RNA instead of DNA or peptides. Recent research has shown that some RNA
molecules are capable of catalyzing their own replication, cleaving
themselves or other RNA molecules, and performing other cellular
functions. For example, even the modern cellular process of making
proteins relies on the ribosome, an enzymatic macromolecule composed of
strands of RNA, and tRNA, shorter strands of RNA that carry each
peptide to the ribosome, interact with the ribosome, and leave the
ribosome after the peptide has been polymerized. This heavy reliance
upon RNA is another piece of evidence that suggests that neither of
Briney's "options" are reasonable; I'd posit that "what came first" was
the code that perpetuated the code. The enzymatic proteins and more
stable code came later.
This is obviously a takeoff of the old "Which came first: the
chicken or the egg?" riddle, which -- equally obviously -- is equally
misleading: The dinosaur egg came well before the chicken.
Origin of Species
1.
What fossil evidence exists showing the evolution of one major kind of
organism into another? (to avoid examples of simple variations, ask for
an example of one taxon "order" becoming another)
2.
If cars and non-related organisms can show similarity, what is the
basis for inferring that homologous phenotypes represent phylogeny?
Briney is making a false analogy quite simply because
cars don't produce offspring via genetic material. Still, to suggest
that homology is "inferred" is disingenuous. If Briney had a firm grasp
of evolutionary concepts, he would know that -- by strict definition --
"homology" represents phylogeny. True homology, that is, is not
determined solely by appearance. Structures that are similar in
appearance but are not phylogenetically related are not referred to as
homologues. The basis for determining, not inferring, whether two structures are homologous might involve fossil record examination, DNA sequencing, or both.
3. What evidence is there that mutation can or has produced unique, new structures rather than modified features?
It must be pointed out that mutation is not the sole
mechanism of evolution. Natural selection is by far the most effective
mechanism. Gene flow and random genetic drift also play a role. This
question in a sense sets up a straw man; evolutionary theory doesn't
say that mutations alone create "new structures." Furthermore, even if
the question is reworded accordingly, it needs to clarify what is
considered a "new structure" and what is just a "modified feature."
However, we can attempt to answer the question by using the
example of resistance genes in bacteria. It is a well-known phenomenon
that non-resistant bacteria can develop new genes that provide
resistance to antibiotics. These new genes are "structures" that did
not exist prior to the introduction of the antibiotics and were
modified based on mutation and natural selection.
See also the following answer.
4.
What is the evidence that shows that mutations can supply an increase
new information rather than just modifying existing genetic information?
First is the objection to the possible false
dichotomy of "an increase [in] new information" and "modifying existing
genetic information." Furthermore, the definition of "information" in
biological systems has been hotly debated; Briney would need to both
give and justify a definition of "information" in order for this
question to be reasonable. Regardless, there are several examples which
surely negate the implications of Briney's question.
A well-known example is antibiotic resistance. This is also a
hotly debated topic because of the obvious implications for those like
Briney who deny that an increase in information can arise from mutation
and natural selection. Read some here, and read Lee Spetner's rebuttal with Max's response here
for more specific information about both antibiotic resistance and the
controversy over the definition of biological information.
A newer, more elegant example is the nylon eating bacteria.
Nylon didn't exist until the 1930s, so upon finding bacteria in nylon
plant wastewater, scientists chose to investigate the origin of the
gene that codes for the nylon hydrolyzing enzyme. They were able not
only to describe what happened but also duplicate the event in the lab. The enzyme is the completely novel result of a frameshift mutation. Read more here.
Despite these obvious counterexamples, we can refute the main point of this article using only first principles of genetics. If "genetic information" is defined such that there can be a decrease in information -- as so many creationists claim happens often -- then the "reverse" mutation would necessarily result in the opposite: an increase in information. If Briney, in an effort to avoid this, denies that there are decreases, then his definition of "genetic information" must be so vacuous that detrimental mutations aren't "losses" and -- correspondingly -- beneficial mutations aren't "increases," which eliminates the requirement for evolution to produce "increases" in order to be effective.
One can only wonder why someone claiming to be so well-educated in biology is ignorant of not only these simple examples that clearly contradict his claim but also the very basics of genetics that outright disprove his claim.
5. What evidence suggests that mutation and natural selection changes have no limits?
What part of evolutionary theory requires unlimited mutation and natural selection? What evidence suggests that they do
have limits? This seems to be a highly nonsensical question with no
hint as to its purpose on this list other than to mislead and confuse.
While he doesn't make the actual claim in this set of questions,
Briney's insinuation of limited mutation graduates to a positive
assertion during public presentations. Given his alleged familiarity
with genetics, he should be able to formulate an argument for this
point; however, to my knowledge, he has not attempted to do so.
6. What evidence shows a transitional form with partially developed, nonfunctional features (such as 10% of a wing)?
What is considered a "partially developed" or
"nonfunctional" feature? A definition of each of those terms must be
provided by the question in order for it to be answerable. There are
plenty of examples of transitional forms; the biggest problem seems to
be in the paradigm of anti-evolutionists who expect to see something
like a completely useless appendage transitionally developing toward an
ultimate "goal" structure when the theory predicts nothing of the sort.
It would behoove Briney to take a look at Tiktaalik, a recently discovered intermediate fossil that contains many transitional features.
7. Why have new body plans not developed since the Cambrian explosion?
Why is the sky blue? No vastly different new body plans
developing since the Cambrian explosion means nothing and is not at all
a threat to or hole in evolutionary theory. It is simply what happened.
Perhaps a good question for Briney would be, "Why did six phyla of
animals already exist before the Cambrian explosion?"
8.
Why is Haeckel's "law of biogenesis" that ontogeny recapitulates
phylogeny still used as evidence for evolution after being exposed as a
fraudulent claim?
As I mentioned above, Haeckel's "biogenetic law"
(Briney can't even keep from confusing the two; the "law of biogenesis" was mentioned above) per se is not generally being used as
evidence. It is widely known in the evolutionary biology community that
Haeckel admitted to altering his drawings to support his theory. To
date, I have never seen his original drawings presented as fact, and Briney has
been unable to produce an example of it being presented as fact.
However, there do exist common similarities in embryos of
different species. (See also evo-devo.) Although biologists don't recognize any "biogenetic
law," embryonic resemblence is well-documented and undisputed.
9.
If fifty years of intensive research on mutant fruit flies has produced
nothing but more fruit flies, why is it thought that other organisms
can evolve into something else?
An absurd assertion with three responses:
Short answer: because four billion years is an incomprehensibly long time.
Less short answer: The vast majority of that research was/is for
the intent of producing more fruitflies. Therefore, generally speaking,
the research eliminates natural selection, which is the driving force
behind evolution. The fact that fruitflies are capable of reproducing
effectively is not in the least bit contradictory to the fundamentals
of biological evolution.
Unsurprising answer: Briney is either woefully ignorant of the research or willfully misleading; we'll let the readers decide which. Section 5.3 of this page explains several speciation events for Drosophila melanogaster, the species of choice for experimentation. While the events produced other species of fruit flies, the assertion that the species is a "dead end" species is demonstrably absurd. Briney's insistence at his seminar that this assertion is "accepted" by biologists is blatantly dishonest and intellectually reprehensible.
Furthermore, "dead end" species (those which die out without any evolutionary descendants) have existed and in no way challenge the theory of evolution. For Briney to imply that the inability of scientists to change a population of fruitflies into some radically different organism means that evolutionary theory must be incorrect once again only speaks to either his gross ignorance of the theory or his intent to deceive the public.
Intelligent Design
1. Why does Venus rotate backward, while Uranus rotates at a 98 degree angle to its vertical plane?
What this has to do with "Intelligent Design" seems a
mystery. Briney has once again appealed to cosmic evolution with
respect to the formation of the solar system.
As Doug Krueger has pointed out, virtually all of Briney's
"evidences" for God's existence is a "God of the gaps" claim, which is
simply a fallacious argument from ignorance.
Venus just barely rotates backward, as its rotational
period is about as long as its orbital period. This might be because of
an impact on the planet long ago, or perhaps an extrasolar meteoroid --
and therefore its mass and trajectory -- being incorporated into the
proto-planet. Because we cannot look back in time, we are forced to
speculate beyond the scope of our evidence. However, in no way does the
question rebut the entire model of the solar system's development. The
same reasoning applies to Uranus' tilted axis.
2. Why do 11 (almost 1/3) of the moons of various planets rotate backward?
I have opted not to verify Briney's claim that eleven
of this solar system's moons rotate backward. The following response
will explain why it is virtually irrelevant.
Also, it should be noted that -- if eleven natural satellites do
indeed rotate backward -- they do not constitute one-third of the
system's moons. Jupiter alone has at least 63 moons, so eleven would
not even constitute one-third of that single planet's moons. In
reality, our solar system has over 140 moons, which would mean that
fewer than 8%, not 30%, rotate backward.
The origins of natural satellites vary from moon to moon. It
is very possible that many moons were simply meteroids in space that
became captured by the gravity of the planets they now orbit. It isn't
at all unlikely that any moons captured in this fashion would have
rotation along an axis that was not parallel to most of the other axes
in our solar system. Therefore, Briney's (mind-bogglingly nonsensical)
suggestion that these "anomalies" weaken existing theories is
unfounded.
3. Why aren't most of the planets composed of hydrogen and helium like the sun?
Scientists do not have a thorough understanding of the formation of planetary systems.
There is a very limited amount of data from which to formulate
theories. (Update: Scientists witnessing birth of mini solar system, 30Nov2005.) The general concensus among today's astronomers is a version
of the nebular hypothesis first proposed by Immanuel Kant. According to
this hypothesis, most heavier elements were pulled by gravity toward
the middle of the protoplanetary disk. Because the four hot, innermost
protoplanets that formed were relatively small, their low gravitational
pulls allowed the light gases such as hydrogen and helium to be blown
farther from the protosun. The larger, cooler protoplanets which were
farther from the sun were therefore able to collect and keep these
gases.
4. Earth's spin is slowing at the rate of almost 1 sec/year. How fast was it spinning 1 billion years ago?
It's always easy to "prove" a point when you get to
make up information. This "fact" is most definitely untrue, but Briney
is presenting it as a fact. (According to Briney's own words, this
proves that he is "either ignorant or a liar.") It would appear that he got this number from Dr. Walter Brown, who retracted the argument after realizing his value was incorrect.
Here in the real (barely-spinning-less-and-less-quickly)
world, calculations based on ancient observations compared to today's
observations show that the earth is slowing in its rotation at an average rate of 1.5 to 2 milliseconds per century.
As explained here, we have good evidence from Devonian corals that tidal braking does not pose a problem for an ancient earth.
Credit Briney with removing this question from his website after Darrel told him that his information was simply incorrect.
However, I pointed out that 11 moons do not constitute one-third of the moons of our solar system, yet Briney has left that question unchanged.
Comments
The reader will notice the increasing level of ambiguity in the
questions. We suspect that this ambiguity was purposely written into
the questions to make the responder appear less credible. This
suspicion is supported by the instructions to ask these vague, often
unanswerable questions during class instead of during office hours or when the responder would have reasonable access to information.